Hawkeye Review S1E6: Your Mess is My Mess

With our final episode of 2021, we're diving into the season finale of Hawkeye! The Kingpin is back, and we're ready to discuss what that means for Kate, Clint, and everyone else involved!

Trey: Hello and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey,

Jude: I'm Jude.

How are you doing Trey?

Trey: You know, what's so funny to me.

I know I've definitely
talked to you about this.

I've made some jokes here and there
on, on Twitter, but I've poked

fun at how we're kind of the slow
pokes of the MCU podcast community.

Just because of the, the time it
takes for us to release our episodes

on the Disney plus shows, it is very
fitting that the last episode of

2021 is the last episode of Hawkeye.

And I'm really tickled by how that
is aligned here for us this week.

Jude: You know what it's, it's so funny.

Like I haven't done a lot of Christmasy
things, you know, just to add onto

that whole slow poke mentality, like
Christmases I wants to hear and it's

like, haven't really done Christmasy
stuff and I need to finish the

Christmas shopping, but it's weird.

Like we just gave my three kids today.

As, and I have to see this, the context.

So today, as we record on the
23rd, the December, they got

their Christmas gifts today.

Trey: It's wild.

I mean, we've talked about it so
often how one division started and

it feels like it just has just been
pedal to the metal since then, but

to be here at this last episode of
2021 it's so it's a weird feeling.

And I most importantly, just want
to let people know that we're,

we're so thankful for everybody that
has been listening to this year.

Cause, uh, it's been a wild year
as far as getting new listeners,

putting out new episodes.

And I don't know, I'm feeling
overly sentimental, which I guess is

appropriate for this time of year.


Jude: love this time of year.

I really do.

I generally get super sad on January
2nd and I always have, and it's one

of those things where I feel like
the fall season, it's just, there's

a change in the weather feels fall.

There's like a slow build of holidays.

Trey: The fall is the,
the exhale of the year.

And, uh, I don't know.

It feels, it feels good to be at the, I
guess the pinnacle of it as we get ready

for Christmas and new year's here soon.


But of course, speaking of things,
coming to an end that we are here with

season one, episode six of Hawkeye
and titled, so this is Christmas.

Uh, the way we're going to do this
is we have some pre spoiler thoughts

where we're going to talk about
the episode without spoiling it.

So if you haven't seen the episode,
this is a chance for you to listen in

and see what we thought without being.

After that we'll jump into the
spoiler zone where it will be fair

game for all spoilers in the MCU.

And again, because of the proximity
of, Spider-Man no way home, I am

going to remind people once more,
that because of the limited access

with going to the theaters, Spider-Man
no way home and Eternals will

be exempt from the spoiler zone.

So if you haven't seen those either, uh,
we will not discuss those films as well.

So with that being said, dude,
do you have any pre spoiler

thoughts for the finale of Hawkeye?

Jude: Okay.

The first thing I was about to lead
with and I just stopped myself.

Cause you said finale, uh, was
probably more for the whole show.

Now I'm going to go with it.

This is.

My favorite, this is my favorite
series and show the finale.

I think they landed it, you know?

I mean, we'll get into it.

I think there's a couple of things that
could have done different, you know?

Um, I like to backseat.


But, uh, yeah.

Uh, but overall, like as far as
the finales go, especially you

thinking about the four shows
we got through 20, 20, 20, 21 to

Trey: 2021.


20, 21 and also five shows, sir.

I was

Jude: the one.



Well I was thinking, just live action.

Trey: I got you.

I I'm teasing.

Jude: So yeah, no, no, no, no.

Like in my head I was just
thinking of live action.

Um, because we, for me,
what if is still something.

Of the MCU rather than a part of it,
although we know that that's changing

it, you know, but in my head, just
the live action Disney plus shows

this one's I think is my favorite.

And as far as finales go, it
is one B to Loki's one a as

an individual episode finale.

Trey: Oh, wow.

I really liked the way that you put that.


Jude: So pre spoiler thoughts for tricks.

This is better than the truck.

It's not as good as party Thor.

Am I right?

Trey: You nailed it, man.

I feel like I can kick back this episode.

Why don't you go ahead
and take over for me.

I'm glad you got at least a one
more in before we in the year

Jude: 20, 20 one's ending.

Um, and the joke will

Trey: never end.

Jude: We'll have to find,
we'll have to find something

else in the next set of shows.

Oh man.

Trey: Oh, that's fantastic.

Well, you know what?

My priest boiler thoughts, I'm going
to play off the way you did it.

One series as a whole, and one on
the finale in particular, you know,

sticking with the pre spoiler thought.

I put it on social media.

Uh, I wrote episode to episode.

I've enjoyed the series, but as
a whole, it feels like it fumbled

Clint story here at the end.

And if you've been listening to as week
to week, you know, I spotlighted what I

was concerned about last episode, and it
feels like that has followed into this.

But that was cause, I mean, I texted
you immediately after I watched it.

And I was a little upset with the finale,
but having watched it multiple times since

then, I've realized how much the issue
I have really stems from episode five.

And I tried to focus on
just this finale as a whole.

And I think the priest thought the
second part of the priest boiler thought

that I wrote that I'm really trying
to zone in on is that Kate and Yulaina

are undeniably the future of the MCU.

And that at least for me is rock
solid throughout the finale.

And that has me really
enjoying what they've put here

in this six episode for as

Jude: little screen time as.

Yeah, you're right.

Rock solid.

Trey: Yeah.

If you listen to our, in tag last
week, we spotlighted Tommy Lee Jones

making the most out of a little Kate
and Elena 100% made the most out of a

little with their on-screen pairing.


Oh yeah.

Well, cool.

I think, uh, I think we can leave that
there until we get into the spoiler zone.

So like we said, you're going to hear an
audio cue and on the other side, it'll

be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.

We'll see.

On the other side

and we're back.

So the way we're going to do this,
as we're going to break it down into

the most important topics, which is
a way for us to discuss the episode

without having to go scene by scene,
the first most important topic we are

going to discuss is party preparations.

So there are a couple of major things
we need to touch on, which is we have

a scene where a little Eleanor is
confronting Fisk, uh, Fisk confronts,

Maya and Caitlin Clint get prepared
for the party after the revelation

of Eleanor's association with Fisk.

So starting with you, Jude, is there
anywhere you'd like to start in particular

Jude: party preparation?

It's a Christmas movie
and show like on Disney.

Plus if you click their holiday
collections, it includes.

Like, they're really pushing
this hard as is Disney and just

really pushing as hard as yeah.

As, um, uh, Christmas.

And that's what you did.

You have Christmas parties unless
you're introverted like us where

we just party amongst ourselves.

Uh, I mean family, but for the most
part, it's just introvert's dream.

Um, um, you know what I am going to start
with with the big guy, Wilson, Fisk, uh,

I had mixed feelings about Wilson Fisk
and this part here, I really enjoyed, you

know, um, I think I've seen and read and
even heard some stuff from, from friends.

You're gonna fall into this trap of
comparing them to the Netflix shows.

I was wondering how Marvel
was going to handle this.

If they were going to.

And the Netflix and we did
this, we did season one.

They really build up to Fisk.

You know, it's

Trey: not until episode four, I think.

Jude: But even when you start seeing
them, you know, he's the big, bad, and

it just becomes so much more intimidating
and so much more menacing, you know?

And that was one of the
issues with my cousin.

Paul texted me about it was like, it
just didn't feel very intimidating.

And I, and I made me wonder did it, was
that because they're making an assumption

on the audience's part of either being
familiar from Netflix, or we keep

teasing as some big bads out there that
we've set those seeds that we've done

enough so we can jump right into it.

Or is there some assumption
that we know who kingpin is?

So you jumped right into it.

Like, I I'm just, I'm curious what
the thought process was there.

But for me, I really enjoyed that intro.

Uh, I liked because I recognized the voice
and I think having that net, you know,

that Wilson Fisk voice, and I think having
that Netflix experience level for me, it

was just like, oh, that's Wilson, Fisk.

You know, it didn't seem out of place.

If that makes sense.

So the way he was acting the lines temper,

Trey: oh 100%.

I mean, one of, one of my straight
notes is, are sweaty mob bosses back.

And, uh, that was one of the
humorous things that I picked

up on that they've carried over.

But on a more serious note, something
that I appreciated is when we spotlighted

him in Daredevil, one of the things we
kept highlighting was how, at his core,

he didn't see himself as a bad guy.

He thought he was fair.

He thought he was reasonable and that
he would give people adequate chances.

So to hear him throw lines to Eleanor,
like in the spirit of the holidays, I'm

going to give you one more chance to
reconsider or whenever Maya's asking for

some time off, he goes, that's reasonable.

It's it's the same Fisk to me like
that, that, that presence is there

as well as the way he views himself.

And the thing that I, 100%

definitely a people person, well,
you know what, that kind of segues

into what I was going to say.

If you haven't seen the Daredevil shows,
he definitely has a troubled past.

Like, there is a reason why he's
become that villain that we see them

in that first season of Daredevil.

And it is because of that
childhood that was robbed from him.

So some of that socializing isn't there.

And the thing that I remember loving
from that first season of Daredevil

is that when he's trying to be sincere
and trying to be the fair person,

he often stumbles over his words
and he's very awkward and very shy.

But the thing that I think makes Fisk
such a cool character or a compelling

character is that his language is rage.

And when he's angry, that is the
most fluent, his sentences are.

And that is carried over
here in this Hawkeye show.


Jude: Oh, I liked the way you put that.

Cause it really is.

Um, it just, the speech patterns, Vincent
D'Onofrio is just he's he's kingpin.

Oh, so glad.

So glad they were able to bring him
back and he was willing to do it.


It, I do find it interesting is
like, I can't, it's just the use

of him throughout the episode.

Um, I've already sent my
appreciable other thoughts.

Sure this episode is one
B to Loki's one, a right.

But I did find it interesting.

And I'm really looking forward to
going through all six episodes again,

now that they're out, rather than
the one at a time speculations over,

I know what happens, all that stuff.

And to take it in because my first note
opens up on kingpin with Eleanor to

set her up as the villain, but the show
didn't really have a person as a villain,

similar to similar to Wanda vision.

You know, I mean, what, like Fisk
is supposed to be the big, bad,

and that king punish kind of way.

But his, it was always just this
looming threat that never really,

it was like, as long as we stand up
his radar, we can do all of this.

You know what I mean?


It's like, it was there to give
Eleanor reason, but she wasn't

really villain per se, if that
makes sense throughout the show.


Um, and so, and so I'm, I'm, you know,
and looking back, going back and watching

Wanda, Wanda vision, you know, Agatha
Harkness really wasn't a traditional

villain and grief was the, the, the
main concept that we're wrestling with.

I want to go back and look
through this again and see,

okay, what are we wrestling with?

What does that through line?

You know, I mean, family is clearly part
of it, but I'm just, I'm just curious.

I want to connect more of
those dots cause that's not.

Um, I just, by the end of it,
didn't think of this show is

having a villain and a traditional.

Trey: And I can see that because again,
like you said, they allude to Fisk.

He doesn't really show here
show until here in this finale.

Um, and even, and I'm kind
of speaking broadly here.

I know this isn't part of the
most important topic, but I often

found myself wondering, okay,
what is the overall objective here

a lot throughout this episode?

Like I understood the,
the, the minor conflicts.

Cause you had, you know, Clint versus
Yulaina you had Maya versus Kasi.

You had Kate versus Fisk, but nothing
felt like, um, a major, like how we talk

about the villain brings out the best in
the hero because it is the manifestation

of the thing they're wrestling with.

I was listening to you and trying to
figure out, okay, what is that here

in this episode and or the series?

And I don't know if I have
a complete answer yet.

So I would like to revisit it the same
way that you are bringing that lens to it.

Jude: Yeah, I, hopefully I will have
a good answer for the wrap-up episode.


Trey: Which we are for sure.

Going to do a wrap-up episode.

I know we took a break with what
if we will do one here for Hawkeye,

you know, sticking with Fisk though.

Uh, you did mention how we see the
way Eleanor is connected to Fisk.

Um, we finally got the
suspicions confirmed.

Uh, I want to be upfront
and say I was wrong.

Jack was totally a Patsy.

Uh, I thought about it
a lot in this episode.

I think I was just blinded by
how much I enjoy the actor that I

wanted him to be something more.

But we can talk about it later, but
just again, resigning to what a doofus.

I went so much more from that actor.

Jude: What I will talk about it more, but
I think he gave us a lot, um, by the end.

And that's the other thing about
watching this all together now?

Um, you know, but I do, you know,
I remember thinking myself, okay,

Eleanor killed demand, Vermont demand,
Armand, Vermont, Armando third.

Um, you know, and so, so it wasn't a
surprise to me that she was, I don't

even want to use the word bad, like,
you know, but if the idea of bad.

And I thought they used Jack well, would
I also, would I re I was go back to Fisk.

I was really surprised
how much of Fisk we got.

Um, I do want to comment on
the clothes he was wearing.

I liked, I liked the first outfit
and I know some people had issues

with the Hawaiian shirt later.

The only, I guess, timeline,
that was the next day.

That was, that was really hard to
tell of when my, when Maya, like,

like he didn't shirt change shirts
mid day is what I'm thinking.

Trey: I'm taking it that like the
Eleanor scenes or early on in the

day, because if we're taking the
time that Kate receives the text

message, that feels like breakfast.

And so it feels like Yalaina took
the video, sent it to Kate, and then

we saw that that was the same day.

So later on in the day, it, it
takes place over 24 hours is an

easy way for me to summarize my

Jude: thoughts.


You know, and then I thought, I can't,
I like the scene with Maya and Kasi.

Um, and Fisk, I thought
that was really well done.

I loved the interaction between them.

You know, it was interesting cause
cause they, they pulled it off

very well where it's like Maya knew
that they knew and they knew that

Maya knew, but they all just played
it straight the best they could.

And like you could tell, uh, which
is completely intentional and just

good performance on their part.

And that was, that was so much fun.

Um, but I, I do think there was an
element though, also of like truth

of when kingpin did the, I love you.

And Maya did that back of like the,
the anger and rage that Maya had

and like trying to avenge, use that
word, avenge her father's death.


She basically was raised by Fisk.

Like there's an element of like, I think
like she legitimate, like she, wasn't just

saying that to get out of the situation.

Like she'd meant it and
you know what I mean?

And there was, um, And I, and I, I'm just
trying to, I'm just thinking about like

how difficult that situation must've been.

Trey: Yeah.

We're definitely in the same space here.

Uh, one of the things that I
noted is how it's almost poetic.

That Kasi is the one
to interpret for Maya.

Because again, you
brought up the word truth.

Kasi is literally speaking the
truth, despite him keeping that

from her all these years, if we
are to believe he is the informant.

And the reason that
Maya's father is, is dead.

Um, and if that is the case, that that
element of truth, that he has to speak

it, even though he hasn't revealed it to
her, just plays into that feeling of the

three of them all know what's going on,
but nobody's actually owning up to it.

Uh, so I thought that
was wonderfully done.

And I think you spotlighted wonderful.

The rage that Maya's feeling and how
that has turned into hurt as well,

because of the trust she used to
have for Fisk and that genuine love

Fisk is equally hurt, and you can
feel it in the way that he signs.

I love you back.

And so, you know, I know we haven't
gotten there yet, but we're going

to get to the point where there
is a supposed cliffhanger where

Fisk has been killed by Maya.

I'm in the camp that I don't
actually think he's dead.

I think this scene right here is going
to be a huge part of my, a show echo.

And I'm really looking forward to how
they explore that because it even says

something on Fisk's part that he is
able to sign American sign language

tour, like it's it's and the way that
you break bread with somebody, or you

try to speak somebody's language first,
even if you can't do it correctly, it's

a sign of respect and some and care.

So I like that they had Fisk trying
to sign even for a little bit with

Kasi interpreting the majority of
it, but he's genuinely trying there.

So there there's a lot
going on in that short

Jude: scene.

Oh yeah.

That was the other thing I would
think just as you mentioned all that,

like how, cause I kept saying from
the beginning, I want more episodes.

I'm going to need more episodes.

But they were super
efficient with all of them.

And even in this one, this sixth
episode, that my call for more episodes

is more of a call now, like before it
was a worry of like, man, how are they

gonna tell a story in six episodes?

I think they did it when I cut my word.

When I called now is more of just
being a selfish person, wanting more.

Trey: How

Jude: dare you.

I know.


But like, so American of me, but like
they, um, especially at Christmas

time, uh, but like, yeah, they said
so much was done in such a short space

with just that quick conversation.

And I just want to add on one
little thing here as well on that.

I love that I w that the way you
were forced in that, that scene

here to really pay attention.

Cause like, I mean, you get this, I'm
going to try to be careful because

I don't want to go too overboard.

Cause I don't, we have the wrap-up
episode, but anytime Maya was on,

you had to pay closer attention
because of the subtitles and

in the hand, the sign language.

But that, that really got you,
especially in this interchange with Kasi.

Pretty much assuming he's the informant,
you know, knowing he's the informant

and Fisk like their facial expressions,
you know, beyond the words and just

paying that close of attention.

And I, and I think they're, in some
ways it might've helped them be

efficient in that short period of time.

Trey: I, I totally see
what you mean about it's.

It's two people who command the scene.

You have Vincent don't offer you
as Wilson Fisk, and you have Eloqua

Cox as Maya and the American sign
language and they are going well.

I'm trying to be careful here.

I'm assuming they're going to be
central characters in the echo show

and it's wonderfully paired with
people who are just commanding your

attention every time they're on screen.


I do want to say this.

I started to set it up, but I'm
realizing, at least for me, if

you have anything, you can add it.

But at least for me, I'll have
more to say about Eleanor and Fisk.

Once we get to the end of
our most important topics.

Um, but I'll, I'll put
a pin in that for now.

Uh, I do want to start moving
into the direction of Kate

and Clint's preparations here.

And the thing that I think stood out
to me the most is I go, I'm glad we got

that we're partner seen when we did, and
I'm going to work through this because

I, I don't even know how to explain it.

I don't think Clint is lying, but
the timing of the way he says it,

we're partners now feels less.

Of he truly believes she's ready and
more that he trusts that she can, she can

grow into that person to be the partner.

And it's because he knows this is what
she needs to hear in this moment because

of the way that she's unraveling with
this revelation of her mom and the

things that she's been involved with.

And the second part of this opening
scenes that makes me feel like this

is whatever they're working on, the
arrows, uh, Clint stops and asks.

I just want to be sure
you're ready for this.

Uh, to me that is trust and vulnerability
and sincerity, which feels like a nice

place for Clint to be in, since that
is one of his objectives as a character

that we've been working on all season.

Um, and so I, again, I don't know
if that's making sense or if he felt

that way, but it's, it's felt more
special than it just being like,

oh, Kate's here in this moment.

We're going to be partners.


I think it's Clint giving her some leeway
to trust that she can be this year.


Jude: like the word I liked
the way you're facing that out.

I'm gonna throw the word agency of
just because she didn't, it was like

Clinton, let Kate have the choice.

You know, like you were saying, have
that space, but he threw out the it's

like throughout the series, he held
her back, not from a, it was like, it

was like training wheels, you know,
it's, it's, it's like riding a bike

and holding the back of the seat
with tr and you know, and then it was

like, you have these training wheels.

I'm gonna take that off,
hold the back of the seat.

And then it's like, okay, are you ready?

You said, you want me to let go?

Are you really ready?

Like, does that

Trey: make sense?

One of the things I wanted to write in
my notes, but it didn't quite feel right.

Of how parental it felt.

And I don't like, I'm not trying to
make any misunderstandings that Clint's

trying to be a father to Kate, but
there is something of that father,

child relationship of the way you
put it beautifully, like holding onto

the bike and trusting that they're
going to stay upright as you like.


Jude: And that's what I
mean about this agency.

It was like, it was still Kate's choices
all the way up in the way of, yeah.

I want to do this.

And he was very clear of like, this
is what brings it brings about this is

what brings about and coming into the
last, this finale, it's like, it's hard.

And you know, and she tried to say,
look, I'm gonna take care of this.

And he's like, we're partners you're
messes my mess, you know, but then

it's like, but at the same time,
you're 22 and this is your mom.

And if you're not ready
for this, it's okay.

You know what I mean?

And so I liked that that came after
the admitting we're partners, you know?

Cause, cause it was can be
completely different if like

you don't have to do this.

No, I want to.

Okay, cool.

We're partners, you know, it's like, no
we're partners, your mess is my mess.

And I know it's your best.

And because of that, if it, you can't, if
you don't think you can do it, it's okay.

You know, it wasn't a, like you
can't, you're not a superhero.

If you can't do this, it's.

Hey, it's okay.

You know, and, and I, and I just love
that, that element of it and I'm yeah.

Trey: Yeah.

And I'm glad again, I'm still in love with
the way you phrase it, of the holding onto

the bike and let him go because I didn't
want it to be so simplified of me just

saying like, oh, Clint told her because
he knew that's what she needed to hear,

because that doesn't feel quite right.

Either it's it's trust and
that's, that felt really good.

And I like that Kate's answer is finally
the right answer where she goes through.

Like, when I saw you, I knew I didn't have
to be afraid because if you could do the

things that you were doing and you can't
fly and you can't shoot laser beams out

of your hand, I knew I could do the same.

And so she's walking through
this realization, like it is the

verbal affirmation of the silent
seed we got, where she was in her

room, looking at all her trophies.

The thing that makes her the hero
is that even when she's afraid, she

still wants to do the right thing.

And that is the answer that
Clint needed in that moment

to affirm his trust as well.

So it's a really great scene.


Jude: yeah.

Well, it's supposed to be scary.


Trey: One last thing, as we're talking
about these Clint Kate scenes, I

would love an extended cut of them
working on all those trick arrows.

Not only because I think it's
humorous, like, especially the way

that Kate was going through and
labeling them with a label maker.

But you know, so often I think, hopefully
not anymore, hopefully there's been some

rehabilitation with the show, but so often
Clint has been like the butt of the joke.

It's like, oh, he's just a guy who
shoots arrows and is really good at it.

But showing the process of him
constructing those arrows and like filling

above with the different little mechanics
that he needs and then prepping for his

battle, I think it adds to the image of
all the skills that go into what he does.

It's not just that, oh, he can't miss.

He's got some, know-how what
these arrows are just really nice.

Oh yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

I like how he's able to, we
see it in two ways really.

And we could probably see it in more
if we really try to pick it apart,

but then, but then we get kind of.

You know, what, at what point
are we getting too nitpicky?

Where he utilizes other people's
skillsets, you know, it was a cool

thing to see the Pemero, but the fact
that he was able to bring back and make

another Pemero and that he opened up
this case, it had stark tips, you know,

and, and or stuff that he could use.

And so his ability to like, take
what others do and incorporate

that in to the arrow was really

Trey: cool.



Movies do we have in the MCU where
we see people using PIM tech or stark

tech, and it's going horribly wrong,
that alone speaks volumes to Clinton.

Jude: Like he dropped a little bit
of that on like the wrong thing.

And all those arrows
are like in the table.

There's like shrunk.

Yeah, that's gone.

Oh, room.

Trey: Well, unless there's any more,
uh, I think we can go ahead and move

into the next most important topic.

All right.

Let's take a look.


I like what you did there.

The next most important topic is called
taking a lap, and this is going to take

us through Kate and Clint arriving at the
holiday party, uh, all the way through

the first half of that confrontation with
the track suit mafia in the ice rink.

So we're starting with me this time and
I think the most standout part of this.

Is 100% Kate Yulaina, you know,
I talked about it in my priest,

Barlow thought undeniably.

They are the future of the MCU.

They are so good, man.

And, and you're right, that
they don't have that many

scenes together, but it is so.

It's it's wild that they become
the favorite scenes every time

they're in an episode together.

Uh, and this one specifically when
they are in the elevator, that silent

moment before Kate tries to push all
that, those buttons and Yulaina slabs

her hands and just goes, no, that
will live rent-free in my head for

Jude: years.

Well, in the case like,

Trey: oh man, it's so good.

It speaks so much about them
because I mean, we know Yulaina

is super skilled as an assassin.

She could dispose of Kate, like
nothing, but it speaks to who she

is that even though Kate's being for
lack of a better way of putting it

annoying, she, she tolerates it and
she's just tried to keep her at bay.

And it speaks to who Kate is that.

Someone completely outmatched that
she keeps trying and it somehow

works, which is it's so good.

Jude: So either we need to see this, or
this will be my head cannon somewhere

Yulaina is charged training Kate as well.

Like she's going to have Yulaina
training and Clinton Barton.

Oh, that'll be so good.

Even if they don't show it in
my head, that has to, because

they've connected to well for
like, Yulaina not to be like, yeah.

When you jumped off that building,
here's a better way to do it.

Trey: Well, I mean, they're
the legacy characters, right?

They are the new Clinton Natasha.

It makes sense that they
have built a comradery.

So I I'm with you.

I want to see that friendship
and mentorship take place.

What's so

Jude: great about it is how are
you going to figure out what

flurries on he's in the elevator?

It's on 12, like, you know, it's
just like, it's like so simple,

you know, but like, Kate's like,
like thinking she's so clever.


And like any other, any other pair.

Hudson the elevator and fights
like he's, but like you said, all

Kate's trying to do is just push
all the buttons and the weight.

It's just like so annoying.

Trey: Oh man.

I wish I would have looked up what she
says, the Russian curse that she throws

at you lane at Kate, because it's so good.

You could feel the
frustration in her voice.


Well, and then even another moment,
like I love when it gets to that scene

where they're just running through
the office building and Kate is trying

desperately to slow her down and
sometimes succeeding as the way she

makes her fall over on that chair.

It gets to the point where Kate is like
blocking the door and she's like, come on.

What are we doing?

Why don't we just go grab a drink?

And Angelina's like, okay.


After I killed Barton, like they
in any other world would be great

friends, but it just so happens.

They're trying to, you know, stop this
huge thing of, of killing somebody.

Jude: Well, and of course, when Kate
hits her in the cheek and you're like,

he just looks at her like, what was that?

But I just liked that
you said it was that,

oh, I love that.

So if they're going to be the new Hawkeye
Blackwood, Were they pulling their punches

Trey: 100%

Jude: like making civil

Trey: war.

I want to say yes, but poor Kate.

I think she's starting at pulled
punches in comparison to your lake.

Yulaina is definitely pulling her
punches, but I think that's where

the admiration comes from, because
right before Yulaina jumps out the

window, uh she's like, oh, that hurt.

And then they start like, admiring,
like, yeah, that was pretty good form.

Oh yeah.

And then just like, stop making me late.

Jude: Well, you had the cool body throw,

so yeah.

It's I think part of why, and
there's no real analysis here.

I'm just gushing.

That's all I'm doing.

I think part of why I loved art, it
felt like there was so much, it's

just how well the chemistry, the two
of them on the screen and just how

well they bonded and how phenomenal.

Of a performance they did and so shorter
time, but also I rewatched all their

scenes three or four times on both
episodes, just I'm going to fast forward

or they're seeing it and watch it.

It's over.

I'm going to rewind fast forward
to that and just watch it again.

Cause I, I just, it was just so good.



Trey: think I'm right there with the eyes.

It's at this point, it's just gushing
of how good they work together.

Jude: Um, you know what it, again, it's a.

I mean, you got to figure out
when was the runtime of this 49

Trey: minutes.

It was an hour and something that's
including credits, post credits.

Jude: Okay.

So again, just super efficient, having
those two characters, have those

moments, um, inner cutting with Hawkeye
fighting, um, well kind of fighting,

I mean, the, the Causey, you know,
when, when Kasi was across the way in

a window and then the, the tracksuit
mafia inside the building and doing

all, all of that and be able to cut
back and forth between there, um, super.

Like really move the, I want
to say story along, because

even with it was just action.

You got, especially with K uh,
Bishop, you got to know even

more of her seeing her in action.

Um, and then hog, I was just being
Hawkeye, you know, and I don't

mean that in a downplaying kind of
way, but it was just super fast.

Um, I'm still getting something out
of those characters in these actions.

Trey: Yeah.

I excitedly jumped to the Kate and Elena
stuff, but leading into this, like I was

so excited because as much as this show
was not openly, but you could just feel

from the trailers as much as it was, as
it was pitched as the diehard of the MCU.

I mean, this is Nakatomi tower.

Like everybody's arriving the dreads
setting in as Kate and Clint arrive,

Eleanor rise, Yulaina arrives.

You see Kasi, like there's
this pressure that builds that.

Finally lets go.

The moment Kasi shoots that first shot
across the building and it's it's the

way everything breaks loose is so good
because even have that wonderful moment

where Kate confronts her mom and the
delivery she had of your, the reason

it's dangerous mom, like that was such
a huge moment for, for Kate's character.

Um, to speak to what you said about
what it's showing of Kate, what it's

showing of Clint and his consistency is
just a, you know, he's doing his job.

This is what he does and he's good at it.

So, okay.

Jude: I'm I'm curious.

I know where I stand.

How'd you feel about them bringing
the LARPers back in as their assets?


Trey: Like it, I cannot help, but think
of the things that you have brought up

the season about the way it's depicting
these firefighters and police officers

and how it's, what commentary it's
making that you see it here verbally,

they don't get respect until they
put on a suit, which works funny in a

funny way, because it's like, oh, okay.

People think they're super
heroes just because they're

in their medieval costumes.

But it's weird that like the only reason
they get respect is because of that.

So I don't know if that's the
intentional part of the show.

I dunno, it's it's I didn't feel that
until the way you highlighted it, but for

the most part, I enjoy it just because
they're charismatic people and I'm excited

to see them intertwined with the action.



Jude: I love that they brought them back,
um, and used them as much as they did.

And LARPing is not
something I've ever done.

It's something, I think it would be fun.

I know I throw yet at you through yet
out there, but there was a silent yet.

Um, just cause I think I would go do it.

Like, it just seems like it would be fun
to go to, and I don't know, and I don't

think I would actually be any good at it.

So let me make that clear as well,
but I still think it'd be fun to go

to and good is a very subjective term,
I guess, when it comes to LARPing.


Trey: but you can tell my viewpoint
on LARPing and this is hopefully not

too disrespectful, but my viewpoint
on LARPing it's like, well, how

are you good at like, I mean, it's
essentially the grownup version of like.

No, you didn't get me.

I activated my force field kind of thing.

Jude: Well, well, I mean, I guess, I
guess it's, it's the it's is it I'm

thinking of when I say not good at it?

I think in my head I'm imagining like
the character acting aspect of it and.

Like the sword fighting and
getting beat, you know what I mean?

Uh, like I would go do it and
I have fun and there's no like,

are you good or bad at it?

But just kind of like the letting
myself go and get into the

character and then like not getting
my butt kicked with the song.

Trey: Yeah.

I think making my joke demonstrated
how not to be good at it, and it's

not playing into the believability,

you know, that's how you
got to be good at it.

Jude: But again, I just, I, I liked
that they used them at the beginning,

but they, but they were able to pull
that all the way through, you know,

uh, grills was, uh, was awesome.

I loved grills did a lot with the
short, short amount of time, you know?

And so that was really
cool for me to see them.

You know, coming back, you know, and
it's very classic hero's journey.

You gather friends and allies?



Trey: they did, it was, it
was heartwarming because of

the way they lean into it.

And they even get the callback of
Gary because Clint is asking Kate

like, all right, what are our assets?

What are our threats?

And Kate's like, there's a threat.

And I kind of like tense up for a second.

There's Gary.

He's the only one who's fired me
from the only job I've ever had.

And it's like, it's, it's a funny little.

Threat and then to turn to the assets
and it's the LARPers like yeah.

It's, it's, it reminds me so much to, to
bring it to another tangent, but one of my

favorite video games is mass effect too.

And part of it is you spend
so long in that game, building

loyalty with your shipmates.

And so whenever you get to the final
part of the mission, how well you do

depends on how much you've strengthened
those relationships in the game.

This is that in the TV show forum, because
they took the time and had the sincerity

and respect for those new friends here.

They are at the final mission
and it pays out for them.


Oh yeah.

So I want to pose this though.

You know, so much of the
show has been demonstrating.

Clint being an excellent marksman when
it comes to his archery, but I'm starting

to suspect that Clint superpower is
actually the ability to Dodge bullets

with shore shots, because we had Kasi
who had him lined up with a sniper,

and then we had to Yulaina who was,
who was running down the side of the

building and had him point blank.

And each time he has dodged the bullets.

So I'm starting to suspect that's
his secret superpower in this series?


Jude: he's uh, he's.

He's like the flash.

Trey: Oh man.

You know, I, I use that joke to
set up what I want to talk about,

but I do like that we got the Kazi
Clint hand-to-hand confrontation.

I thought that was really well done.

If I could nitpick a
little bit, I would have.

Like it felt like this would have been the
moment to have some sort of confirmation

of Causey's involvement with the
potential of doing a way of Maya's father.

Like somehow letting Clinton know.

Um, I think this would have fit there
and I would have added to the emotional

stakes of their fight somewhat.

Uh, but even without that, I
thought it was still pretty

enjoyable, especially the way.

Cause he was like, oh,
this is going to be fun.

And then Clinton like slams
into the ground and Clint's

like, yeah, you're right.

That was fun.

Jude: Yeah.

This is where I'm going to
have one of my first problems.

Um, I agree with you.

The sequence was funny.

Like, I, I liked the sequence,
but it felt out of place that

Causey we'd be doing that.

Like, like am I think through Kasi,
through the rest of the show, he

never felt like a man I'm going
to enjoy this kind of kind of guy.

You know what I mean?

He always felt like he was, he was
going along with Maya and when she was

there to kind of hold her back and it
just seemed like such a switch for him.


Trey: me, what's missing is
partly what I talked about.

I wish there would've been some
confirmation of his involvement with the.

And partly it's, it's also what I talked
about earlier in, in feeling like I

don't quite understand the motivations
of some of these, these players here.

Like I get the basic,
like protect Eleanor.


One of my lingering questions
and we can get more into it

whenever we do the wrap-up it's
still like, outside of knowing.

The watch identity, which we'll get to
later, it was never clear why that was

so important to the tracksuit mafia.

And we talked about it before we at first
believed it was Maya who was hunting

that down, which may have insinuated.

She knew Clint was Ronin prior,
because why else would that

watch be important to you?

And then we suspected, well, maybe it
was Kasi who was hunting down that watch,

because that was another way to ensure his
involvement with that night that Maya's

father was murdered, wouldn't come into
play, but other than just wiping out the,

the troublemakers for trouble sake for
the tracksuit mafia, it felt like they

were missing an emotional motivation
and that was your moment to do it.

So that's where I feel I can
see how it was out of place

for you for the character.

Jude: Yeah, you're right.

Like, like, I don't know who really
was trying to get the watch originally.

So as the tracksuit mafia, Y who wanted
it and if they would have, like you

said, if they would've taken that
here and truly just made it Causey,

you know, give him something, right.

It just, it just didn't.


Like, yeah, that would work.

And that would make sense.

Otherwise, as it stands, I'm like,
I didn't dislike Kasi throughout

the series, but that was a moment of
like, Hmm, this didn't feel right.

You know, I have wondered to what extent
did they have to do rewrites and reshoots?

Uh, well, let me rephrase that.

I don't know.

And I'm curious, when did Wilson
win-win Vincent D'Onofrio come on board.

And if he was kind of like a
Spider-Man in civil war, kinda late ad.

And so, okay.

So we got to revise the script.

If that, if that's what we're
feeling here is some of those, okay.

What are the script
revisions we have to do?

Cause we're going to get to use this
character and we didn't play it originally

Trey: playing on it.

I know I'm going to be speaking out
of my element here, so I apologize and

take it with some grain of salt, but
I do feel like I remember there being.

A weird window in which people knew.

Okay, Disney's going to get the rights
back from the Netflix shows at this point.

So prior to this point, you can't
even have plans for those characters

because you don't have the rights to it.

So it, I I'm with you, like w at
what point did it, they've had

that confirmation and they could
do these things and what that.

Wade into the show making.

And at the only reason I can also go
out on this limb with you, I 100% think

that's why we got the ambiguous end
for kingpin as kind of like a oh, okay.

Just in case things didn't work out.

You know, we didn't daughter
I's and cross our T's.

We have an out with that.


Jude: So that was kind
of weird and that's all

Trey: speculative on our part

Jude: a hundred percent speculative,
but it just, I remember watching,

cause I've seen this now three
times and in the second watch,

there was a couple of things.

I was like, that feels like a
reshoot that feels like, like just

the way it was pieced together.

Does that make sense?

Cause like you could have
done this same thing.

Dropped kingpin altogether.

Never have them show up, but always.

Kind of hinting at some looming
presence in the background still

had Eleanor as your mastermind and
still found a way to wrap all this up

without having kingpin ever show up.

And so that's why I say I'm wondering
to what extent was that like some

reshoots and rewrites to work kingpin
back in not saying that that's what

they did, but that's what it felt like.

Trey: Well, moving along after Clint
and cozzies confrontation, uh, we

eventually get to the point where
Clint launches himself out the window.

Uh, but the wire that he is hanging on to
breaks and he finds himself in the tree.

Uh, what did you think about Kate
having to rescue Clint out of the tree?


Jude: there's part of me that wishes.

Not that it didn't happen because I liked
the moment, but there was part of me

that was like, what is Clint going to do?

How is he going to get out of this tree?

Like, as he was, I'm just
wondering what his plan was.

Cause like he's Hawkeye Clara Barton.

I feel like he would have had a way
out, you know, He was in a good spot.

He was taking a moment arrest.

Uh, he wasn't ready to
go down yet and help.

Trey: He was straight up
chilling in that tree.

Jude: I know in case like,
screw this, get down here.

Trey: He's, you know, he's an older guy.

He wants to take a quick breather.

Nobody can see you found a new Al friend.

Jude: Uh, I liked, I did like the sequence
because it gave her that whole sequence

followed that up with the whole sliding
on the needs of the ice and, and causing

the steam or smoke, you know, whatever.

Like that was a cool moment for
Kate and she needed that moment.

That was a leveling up moment.

Um, you know, so I, and I, her use of,
uh, the arrows to get the tree down.

You have your typical, like, you know,
on my signal, like they had earlier and

she's like, do you want to say that?

Never K guess not

Trey: for me.

I'm not going to do anything stupid.

Jude: Well, it wasn't stupid.

He got her down or she
got him down, you know?


Trey: I love it because I I'm
definitely on Cate side here, but

I could see Clint's frustration.

It made me think, has that tree
ever been destroyed in any series?


Jude: might

Trey: be a first, I think
it's a first Kate has made her

place in cinematic television

Jude: history.


You know, there's going to be some
goofy kid or adult cause we can be

pretty goofy that just like, Hey,
I wonder if that actually works

and they're going to go try it.

Um, I get a notification
on my phone breaking news

Trey: trays.

I didn't mean to step over your joke.

I honestly didn't know you were
going to see the same thing.

Jude: Say somebody talked over the tree.



Oh man.

So no, and I, and I liked it.

They set it up because there was, there
was a moment where they use the acid

arrows to take down the stoplights.

Um, and it didn't really, it
didn't feel like it did anything.

I, and I get like the point, but
the over the, the larger point

was a using of the acid arrows.

So like, when you saw this moment,
you knew what was happening and

what she was using, you know?

Uh, so yeah, so I'd like that.

It was anytime they do something
like that, where it pays off later.

And they've like showed it to you once
before to like teach you like and get

you ready for another, another moment.

I like, I usually just

Trey: eat that.


It's growth.

It's 100% growth.

Well, I think we got one more
thing to tackle before we move

into the next most important topic.

And one of the final things we got here
in this section is after you described

Kate's awesome hero moment, where she has
created all the smoke and distraction,

Nashi slides into Clint, and when they
have their back to back arrow shots,

uh, we see a wide variety of trick
arrows, which feels like a culmination

of everything we were building too.

As far as the fun side of being
the hero has, has been concerned.

Uh, what did you think of some of those
trick arrows that were on display?

Jude: Well first before I talk about the
trick areas that were on display two of

my, and it's so weird, we're going to time
travel real quick because we got to put

up as, as of the recording bingo card,
not friend, Dino family data, bingo card.

Um, at the time of the recording, two of
my options are actually come from this

scene for title out for title things.

Uh, well, I don't even know if this is
going to make the poll at this point,

but of the list of things this, that way,
is it time, like just that excitement

of getting to use the trick arrows,
uh, and then, you know, Hawkeye Kate,

you know, let's, let's give them hell.

Um, you know, I love that.

I, you know, which arrow that I
loved the most for some reason.

And I think it was just
because of how visual it was.

Uh, it was the very
first one, the magnitude.

Trey: Yeah.

I mean, it was, again, we've
already seen it on display twice

where Clint gets rid of the gun.

When he confronts Kasi, Kate gets
rid of the gun when they have

the trio fight on the apartment.

This is the continuation on that.

But raising the stakes by getting rid of
all the guns from the tracksuit mafia and

I, that was so cool the way they did that.

Jude: Yeah.

And I, and I think it was just because
of the, also the visual where like, it

magnetised all those flagpoles and just
the blue, just the way they visually

showed that being magnetised so you
can, so you knew what was going on.

Um, I just, I loved that.

So that was that I would say
there's others that I liked,

but that one was my favorite.

What, which one was your.

Trey: I really enjoyed the air
bag, which it's funny that it's the

one that I like the most, because
it's kind of comical in a way.

I think sometimes we would call
out the shows for distracting, but

the idea, like just the idea or
walking through the logic of when

would he ever need an airbag arrow.

And I guess it was that if you want to
just take out multiple enemies at one

it's, it's the perfect combination of
ridiculousness and usefulness, which

feels like the trick arrows in a nutshell.

Jude: Okay.

I find I've never been shot with an arrow.

I feel like, I feel like I
don't need to experience that,

to know that it would hurt.

Um, I just, I feel comfortable
making that statement.

The one that.

Trey: I didn't mean to laugh over
your point, but I don't think

anybody has ever calmly stated
he had been shot with an arrow.

I wasn't

Jude: expecting that.

Um, what, and I said, I've watched
this episode three times now.

The one that I, every time I just
cringe was the one where the guy got

the frozen leg, you know, talking about.



As much as it hurts when I bank my shit
on something, taking an arrow to the shin,

for some reason just makes me cringe.

It's like imagining an
error, like, like that.

Didn't, I'm imagining that
wasn't a suction cup arrow.


So like, like that alone,
Without the frozen part, I'm

going down, like I'm done.

Trey: You would be the, uh, the
henchman in Ironman at three it's

like, man, these people are so weird.

I just started working.

Jude: We're already working here.

The pays, not even that good I'm out.

Um, you

Trey: know, but yeah, it's just,
you know, I used to be a Hitman, but

then I took an arrow to the knee,

Jude: but yeah, it's just that just
visually seeing visually seeing that

being shot in the knee, in the, in
the shin, God, that must have hurt.

And I don't know why that would
have all, none of them and felt,

probably feel good, but that one, for
some reason, You know, and it's it.

You know, what I love about this
show is how easy the suspension

of disbelief happens, right?

Like, like we, we talk about, we,
we joke about the Spider-Man game

of like, I'm a friendly neighborhood
Spider-Man and I'm going to

basically kill somebody, you know?

And when you're fighting in the game,
it's like, no one survives that punch

or kick from Spiderman, man, getting
shot with an arrow or even a trick era.

Even the airbag arrow is high up as
they're getting thrown and backed down on

the ground, they're taking some serious
damage, but you don't think about it.

It's just so much fun to
watch the tricky arrows.

Um, and, and again, I it's, it's
suspension of disbelief and I.

they just find a good way to,
to, to be like, what are they

going to surprise us with next?

You know?

And that, and that's one of the things I
love the most about that, that sequence.


Trey: And, you know, and I mentioned it
in what was an episode three or four,

where so often Clint's the butt of the
joke of not being the strong Avenger,

but because of the down to earth aspect
of shooting an arrow, he ends up being

the most brutal of the Disney plus show.

So far just the way
those shots are depicted.

So I think having this trick arrow
barrage is the only way to have such

a big scene like this, because it's
got to have that, like what I was

talking about with the airbag, it's
the combination of silly and useful.

So yeah, I get what you mean about it.

Like it's, it's a suspension of disbelief.

Jude: Couldn't find a way
to work in the boomerang.

Trey: I really, I would've put money down.

I thought we were going to
see the boomerang arrow.

I thought Clinton was just trying
to push Kate away and he would like,

that would be like the, oh, okay.


He were hiding one this
whole time kind of moment.

Jude: Did they try to set up?

And it felt like they
were going to set that up.

They didn't happen.

Not this time.

There's always cross
my fingers season two.

Trey: Yeah.

Because I mean, they definitely are
gonna need more time to go and speak to

Scott Lang about what to do after they
have minimized those tracksuit mafia.

Jude: And how terrifying was that?


Trey: You know, what was the odd, earliest
creepy part about that in the captions?

Whenever they are being picked up,
it says small children screaming,

Jude: oh, trust me, I watch
it with the captions on.

So if you did just subtitles,
which you know, is that a hot a van

about the size of a hot wheels with
small children and it's screen.

Was taken away by an owl.

Oh my gosh.

What a way to go.

Trey: Yeah.

Anyway, you want to move into the
next, most important topic, man.

Look, we're going out on a high.

Jude: They did way up high

up there, man, their lungs are small.

Trey: Uh, there'll be fine.

It's it's it's pin magic.

Oh, like I said, I think we can go ahead
and move to the next most important topic.

Uh, this one is called.

Splitting the arrow.

So this is going to take us from the
moment that Clint pulls off with the

wonderful shot of shooting two arrows,
splitting them apart and taking out

almost three people, but because he
catches it and it denotes a split of

three storylines in the show, which
I thought was beautifully well done.

So we have Kate Fisk and Eleanor.

We have Maya and Kasi and we
have Clint and Yulaina man.

So where would you like

Jude: to start?


This is tough.

I'm truly meaning mean there's some,

Trey: there's some heavy
hitters in here, so yeah,

Jude: I'm going to start with is
Clinton Yulaina and I'm going to start

by throwing the ball back to you.

Well, you have your, your
preschooler thoughts.

You said in your freestyle, their
thoughts and like what we publish

on Twitter that you felt like
they fumbled Clint's storyline.

And the, the part that I, that my head
immediately went to was, you know, we,

we brought this up with Ellie, from
OSHA podcast, you know, and, and I asked

it kind of ridiculous, but question,
cause I knew the answer, but I just,

I wanted to hear it because that,
cause as I was thinking through just

the whole, if we frame Jack for it, is
that going to be satisfying or both?

No, like that's not going to
be a satisfying redemption

to get away from Ronan.

And were you happy with the Elaina's
changed your heart with the whistle?

Because I saw somebody on Twitter.

Uh, and I, I don't know
if I kept the tweet.

Uh, sometimes if I know I'm
in a, you know, uh, bring it.

On pod.

I try to keep the tweet
so he can refer to it.

But, but the, but the complaint was, this
is like Batman versus Superman, Martha,

you know, like with all this anger and
rage that Julaine has had, do we really

believe she's going to stop at a whistle?

And just, was it just got me thinking
of like, oh, you probably didn't see

this as a satisfying redemption here or
reason for him to stop or Delaney going

against the whole wheelchair actions
kind of not just fancy nice words.

Uh, so that's what I'm curious about.

Like, like I like the, the whole sequence,
but I, and I didn't have that feeling

of them fumbling, uh, Barton story.

So that's, I'm curious on, on you, was
it the whistle was, was that just, you

know, what, what part of it didn't work.

Trey: So this actually, I was 100% okay.

With, uh, I really enjoyed this.

And as you were, you were setting
it up as this is the MCUs Martha.

There is a part of me that when I
saw the whistle sequence, the first

thing I thought of was in one division
for people who've been following us

since then, I said it was a magic
trick in episode eight, that they were

able to pull off that revelation of
Wanda having this love for sitcoms.

And that was the backdrop for
her grief, taking physical

manifestation within the show.

And I called it a magic trick
because it shouldn't have worked.

You retrofitted an idea to a
character, but they sold me on it.

And I believed it.

I'm feeling a similar thing here,
especially with the way Clint is.

Like your sister, she talked about
you a lot, you know, the way she flew

that plane, I don't think it's as
elegant as they did in Wanda vision.

Like the retrofitting of
this character's history.

But the thing that separates it for
me from being it, being the Martha

silliness is it's not just that moment.

I think Clint is actually using Yelaina
his logic about, it's not the nice words.

It's what you do that defines
you by showing Yulaina.

It was Natasha's choice.

This is the choice she made.

And despite Julaine his rage being,
you know, she wants to hear, like I

did this, I killed Natasha whatsoever.

Clint pointing to them, both knowing
the kind of person that Natasha

is, the actions that she took, the
sacrifices that she would have made.

And despite Yulaina not wanting to
believe it and continuing to fight because

I mean, you mentioned it last week.

If this show was called it.

There's no reason for Maya to
believe Clint when he was talking

about, you know, were weapons and
you illustrated that perfectly.

We got that here because Yulaina
straight up, calls him a liar and

they build up to it wonderfully
what, the way the music swells.

And then they cut to some of these
other storylines, but we keep coming

back and you see how, because Clint
has framed it as these are the

actions that we know Natasha to take.

Yulaina starts to.

Come down a bit.

And the moment that is just heartbreaking
and beautiful and Florence Pew's part

is, you know, anger is the mask that
sorrow wears and you hear her sorrow

breakthrough when she says you got so much
time with her and we finally get to the

core of why Yulaina so angry and yeah.

That's why she wants to
believe Clint did what he did.

And when she's finally able to admit,
I'm just upset because I don't get

this time with my sister anymore, man.

Uh, that scene was so good.


Jude: That, that line
was really heartbreaking.

Trey: Yeah.

Just and the, yeah, the whimper.

Jude: Ah.


And, and that was, thank you.

That was fantastic.

Um, just cause it just, I couldn't place
like, like there and I was like, cause

for me, that scene was so wonderful just,
and who knows, maybe I'm misremembering.

I like, okay.

I didn't fight

Trey: back.


You see a shift, it becomes
defensive and it's winter

captain America, winter soldier.

I'm not going to fight you.

And he drops the

Jude: right and he didn't, you know, he,
he was like, nice to finally meet you.

Uh, I mean, we've seen him, he
can hold his own if he needed to.

And he didn't, you know, he was just
like, I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna

fight you, you know, was, was, was
the, was the feeling and him just being

honest and just saying, Hey, you know,
this is the person I knew her to be in

or well, in the moment of honesty of
just saying like, you know, tell me,

you know, what happened and he's like,
that's not going to matter, you know?

And he's right.

It's not like it's not going to matter.

That's not.

Going to be helpful,
um, for, for you Elena.

Um, and it's so funny cause
that's, we always humans.

We're so weird.

We always feel like knowledge.

I mean, we do, we feel like that
knowledge will make these things.

If I just know if I know
something, then not knowing is

the worst kind of kind of stuff.

And, and I know I'm talking out of my
element because there's probably people

that, that have had horrific things happen
to them and, and knowing does give some

kind of closure, you know what I mean?

Um, and the knowing helps, but, but
just that idea that like we want to

know, and we have such a desire to
know, uh, things and don't want to

be left in the dark, so to speak.

When, when a lot of times it doesn't
change anything, you know, like

that knowledge doesn't necessarily
make the feelings go away.

You still have to wrestle with them.

You know, so yeah.

It's it was, it was wonderfully written.

It was wonderfully done.


Trey: I mean, it's, it's, it's what
we talked about in Shung G where the

thing you think you're looking for
in Shung cheese case of thinking, I

have to kill my father, like to get
to that moment, to know you're capable

of doing it and realizing that's not
actually what you're looking for.

That's the Elena's story here.

It wouldn't have brought her the
closer she thought she needed.

And you know, I, there is a part of me
that does feel like this came a little

quick, as far as the resolution goes,
but I'm overall happy with it because I

think I'm, at least I'm glad they didn't
end it like, oh, hugs and make amends.

Everything's better between them.

She understands, but it's not
like they're on good terms.

She just walked.

And, you know, I, I know we talked about
it about potentially both of us are

going to be putting our writer's hat on.

This is what I was looking for from the
Maya Clint interaction from last week.

Um, you know, I, I talked about it
in the preschooler thought and how I

thought they fumbled Clint's story.

Um, and you know, upon sitting down to
take notes, I realized, okay, my issue

is mainly with the previous episode,
not necessarily this one in particular,

because clearly I've been glowing so far
throughout this entire review, but we get

that moment where Clint just straight up
says, I'm sorry to Yulaina and he doesn't

even have direct fault in what he's
apologizing for, but he's showing empathy.

The fact that Yulaina doesn't even
have to forgive them, but there's just

still this understanding between them.

I wish that's what they would've done
in the Maya Clint scene, because as

much work as they've done of getting
Clint to this vulnerable place, getting

this place where he's understandable.

I don't personally feel, we
saw him make amends for Ronan.

There's no possible way that I think
he could completely do away with what

he's done as the character Ronan, but
at least starting with saying Maya, I'm

sorry that I caused this pain on you.

This is why I did it.

We just didn't get that.

And that's my problem with the show.

They had zero scenes in this episode
to put it in perspective for me.

Jude: No, no, no.

That makes sense.

Like you're right.

They had zero scenes and like you could
argue, he didn't get the opportunity to

say, sorry, because Maya wasn't having it.

And as he was talking, she kicked the
sword to the side and attacked him.

Like you could make that argument.

Um, the problem I have with that argument
really is when you get into, uh, and

well, let me rephrase that before
I had the problem I have with that

argument is it also would make sense.

That Barton intended to apologize and
was going to in my, uh, overcome still

with the anger and you know what I mean?

And you're liar kind of stuff
like, like that would make

sense for her character as well.

However, outside of the world,
and you think getting into the

writer's room, that's an act of
choice, you know what I mean?

And call it a fumble.


And so that was one of those things where
it's like, you could have, you know, yeah.

You could have had that apology.

I, I agree with you on that.

Trey: Well, cool.

I was really worried.

I was going to go into this episode
being the bad guy, but I'm glad I

made my case, at least for the host

Jude: here.

Yeah, no, no, no, no.

You're like, like that,
that is a completely fair.

Trey: And I think that was my friend.

Cause I even talked about it with you.

Uh, it was so close.

It was so close to being my
favorite Disney plus show.

And I, that, that aspect of it
is the only thing that kept it

from being the number one spot.

Jude: Even with you explaining that to
me and me agreeing with you, it still

doesn't knock it down a peg for me.


I'm just gonna be honest.

Like you didn't ruin it for me, but I do.

I do.

I do agree with you that like yeah, they
could have had that moment in there,

but then you start running into, okay.

Let's I'm going to be careful because
we can go over this again in the wrap

up upset, I guess, but like, can, this
was the previous, um, episode, but then

you do get into the moment of like, no,
I think it would work for a character.

He apologizes then she'd
kicks the sword away.

You know, in other words, you're
balancing a scene of also how do

you want Maya being portrayed?

Because we know that she's
not the bad person, you know,

like we agree with Hawkeye.

You know, and being pointed.

And so it's, it's like, how do you
want to portray that person is as

well, but now I'm I'm with you.

I'm on

Trey: board.

Well, let's, let's put a pin
on that and we can pick it

back up in the wrap-up episode.

All right, cool.

We'll do that.


You know, we've got two more options here.

We can go with the Maya Kasi
scene or we can go with the

Kate Eleanor and Fisk seed.

Um, if I can choose, I think we
could go to the Kate Eleanor and

Fisk scene, and that will let us
wrap up nicely with Maya and Kasi.

Um, you know, last week you put it in
a way that I didn't initially feel,

but I started to understand your point.

That Fisk felt like a distraction.

It should've been this huge
emotional moment for Kate to

realize that her mom is this person
that she didn't expect after all.

And yet we were all talking about Fisk.

I know for me personally, the fact
that they pitted Kate against Fisk,

reclaimed some of that momentum
and made it more about her, that

I could see what was missing.

And the previous episode did
that come across for you?

Or were you still feeling like
it was a distraction overall?

Jude: Was there was fiscal distraction.

Trey: Yeah, or did having Kate defend
her Mont against Fisk, kind of bring

that back into more of her stories focus.

Jude: Okay.

I think having Kate defend her mom
against Fisk brought it, brought it

back more into it's Kate story focused.

However, I still think they misused
Fisk and that a previous episode.

And even in this episode, I agree the

Trey: Hawaiian shirt continue.


Jude: I'm kidding.

Look, when you're as powerful as
Fisk, you wear whatever you want.


Trey: I was in a matter of him ripping
that door open and remembering how

vicious of a person he was and then him
bending down and wearing that dumb hat.


Jude: Continue.

He was out on the town.

It's cold out there.

He has a bald head.

What'd you want to have one of the beat?

Trey: And his clothes got
progressively worse from the

start of the emphasis to the

Jude: what'd.

You what'd, you want like a red beanie
with two little horns sticking out of it?


Trey: no, I don't know what I want.

It's good.

Accepted sucks.

That's me.

And the Disney plus

Jude: can I start Lord?

So, yeah.


So I just think they misused Fisk and
it, and this is why I feel like they

either wrote them in late because you
got to use them or they just got an

hammered with this idea of using Fisk
and like, just forgot that, oh, Hey, this

is going to overwhelm or I don't know.

So, oh, well here's where, it's why
it's one B versus one a, is you in Loki?

They were able to introduce Kane, right.

And have him as at large looming
presence and find a way to kill.

In such a way that we know King's
coming back and the killing of Cain

was a part of the loci Sylvie story.

And I think they could have ended
this with wrapping up all of their

stories with his involvement, but,
but didn't need to go that far.

So for example, like if I, if I was going
to rewrite this, I would say the Fisk,

my, uh, Causey scene takes place more
towards, and I would make that tape.

I don't know exactly where in the episode,
more towards the end, I would think.

But like, I don't think I would
have put them in a position

where Maya had to kill Kasi.

I think Kasi, you know, cause there was
this moment of like, this is my life.

It shouldn't have been your life.


And so I get that right?

Like, oh, you care for her that
shouldn't have been your life.

It's turned into there.

But like, at that point it was like,
I felt like you could have had a

turn of like, like, cause there
was that we all, Kate synced it.

Other people synced it, this tension
between the two of them, like, why

did he go so hard at Maya for Fisk?

It just didn't make sense for me.

And it would've made more sense if Fisk
killed Kasi when like either Fisk goes

after Maya some way and like, cause he
gets in the way or Kasi refuses Fisk for

Maya and Fisk kills Kasi and then leaves.

So we get that rap kind of moment with
Fisk and it, and it kind of fuels and

drives Maya more like, like, like.

I think for the purposes of this
show, shifting my, uh, from Ronan to

Fisk is sufficient enough resolution.

And you could have done it in
a way that you killed off Kasi,

but Maya didn't have to do it.

Does that make

Trey: sense?


I see what you mean.

And I

Jude: feel like the resolution
of Kate and mom could have been

done without a fight with Fisk.

Like I just like, like Fisk is
powerful enough that he didn't

need to murder the show for her.

The chauffeur probably worked
for him anyways, you know?

So like she gets in the car and you have
the classic trope of like Sydney here.

Wait, where are we going?

You know?

And like Mr.

Fisk wants to see you and then
use one more trick arrow from

Kate and Kate saves her wrong.

From an eventual eventual meeting with
Fisk, but then, but then you have your

typical you're, you're not typical.

You have your end that we had,
I'm going to do the right thing

and mom gets arrested, you know?

Um, and then that makes things far more
complicated because Kate's like down the

line cause Kate's doing the right thing.

But the ramifications of her mom being
arrested and not showing up to the fist

meeting, like, like she did a good thing
and there's foreseeable consequences,

but there's also, there's unforeseeable
consequences that we see and know,

because this is out there, you know,
like, like then you have a much more

intimidating Fisk and we don't just
have, you know, otherwise what we have

is like, well, okay, just went from
Fisher-Price mafia to Stan taking, you

know, standing one-on-one with Fisk.

Like it's.

It was too much too quick.

Trey: Well, first off you don't
know how happy you made me

bringing back Fisher-Price mafia.

That's really good.

Um, and second, you know, I, I set this
up as, as talking about Kate and Eleanor

and Fisk, but I'm going to pivot and
start with my Maya Kasi notes as the

first thing I want to respond to the.

Thing that I have.

And it's because this is
something I picked up on.

I think it was last episode.

You know, you, you talked
about not understanding or not

seeing why they needed to be a
confrontation with each other.

There's been a subtle storyline of the
jealousy that Kasi has for Maya being the

one to take charge of the tracksuit mafia.

Um, we talked about it last episode about
like that being a potential reason why

he was questioning her leadership in
episode three, where he's like, yeah,

you are running the tracksuit mafia, but
your father never would have done this.

He openly states it in
their confrontation.

It was never supposed to be you.

This is my world.

And I think he really was expecting
to be the one to take charge.

He was the second in command and I
can see again, we never confirmation

for it, but I can see the plan of,
okay, let's get rid of the father.

I take charge.

But that's not how it played out.

And so there's this element of
jealousy and, and, and the actor frothy

himself, he talked about, he is there
in that karate class with young Maya.

So I think even though they probably,
like, I would have liked a little bit

more, you know, we always talk about
the handholding or, or trusting us.

I think I would have liked a little
bit more handholding of demonstrating.

He was there because it then becomes a
lot more poetic that here we are seeing

them fight again, where we first saw
them as children in the karate class.

And it eventually puts them here
against each other because of the way

life has taken has taken its winding

Jude: turns.

That is definitely some hand-holding
that I would have appreciated

there because I don't think I
realized he was in the karate class.

Trey: The only reason I know is because
he talked about it in an interview, uh,

which I can link to in the show notes.


Jude: and again, the.

Now it makes me that did that, like,
recontextualize the tension in that line?

My Kate Bishop she's like, did you
see a sense of tension between them?

Like, was, was that in like Amaechi when
she watched it, she was like, are they

a couple, are they, uh, are they a thing
like, like what what's going on here?

And that's how I read that line.

Like, there's some interest there, but
that could also be attention in the

sense of the who's in charge tension.

And I just did not read it that way all
the way back to that, to that episode.

And so, like, they couldn't like,
so sound like they could have been

laying the groundwork that I just
read it completely differently.

Trey: Well, I think
there's elements of both.

I think that's what makes their
dynamic complicated because I

think my, uh, feels for him.

In that relationship way.

And I think he does too, but he
still has those goals that are

conflicting with what he wants to
do, because he has this moment.

She's like, I can't walk
between both worlds.

I can never leave this.

I can't just run with you.

This is who I am.

This is what I want.

And so part of me wonders, because again,
we see the stab, we see him on the ground.

I don't know, are they
leaving it up as a potential?

Like, this is the only way he could
walk away from this moment without Fisk

questioning them where you see sometimes
in like mafia shows where like, oh,

you know, you have to take the bullet.

So it looks like you put
up a fight kind of thing.

That was another potential way.

I was reading this with Kasi because
it's not a hundred percent, he's dead.

Maybe like 98%.

He's dead.

But that's what I read because
of that feeling of like, I

couldn't escape this world.

If I wanted to

Jude: see, I took it as he's dead.


You know?

Um, they could always, no.

I, if they did this, I'd be upset.

Um, actually like they could
always do like, oh, they faked it.

So this would think he's dead,
but I don't think that I would

be, I would not be okay with it.


Trey: would be okay if
it's the take some damage.

So it looks like you put up a fight,
but I don't want it to be like,

this is his, the way he got out.



Jude: where I fall on that.


I'm not going to fall on that arrow.


uh, so yeah, like, yeah, I
I'm, I get, I get all that.

I just didn't read it that way.

And maybe because I didn't
read in those that way.

That's why I had such
a big problem with it.

And why I felt like Kasi was such a,
a turn here on this, on this episode

from what we've seen previous.



Trey: could have done more for sure.

Jude: Yeah.

Um, but that, but again, that's how.

Like you could have done
better utilize Wilson, Fisk.

You know, he didn't need to get
that involved, simply having that

menacing presence in the back.

Uh, and what I mean by that involved.

Like you could have, there's a number
of different ways you could have done

this, you know, um, whether it's just
basic henchman, pinch people, whatever,

you know, the, the, the people that
work for him that goes and does his

dirty work, whether you just had him
and there's some dialogue bring me

Eleanor and Kate stops it, you know,
there's a, there's a ways of doing it.

But I think at the end
he just got too involved.

He didn't need to be that way.

So, I mean, you took an
arrow, I'm a see the big man.

I'm assuming he's wearing some kind
of like flak jacket or whatever, you

know, a hundred percent, I'm curious
to see how he gets out of the gunshot.

Cause you know that they didn't kill him.

Uh that's the, that's the other problem
with my scene with that, that scene

at the end for me is like, it doesn't
feel like a resolution for Maya because

I'm not convinced that he's dead.

And if he actually is dead, that.

That is a complete fumble and
misstep of how to use kingpin.


Trey: would be shocked if he's dead.

Jude: I would be too.

But, but that's the other thing
is not for the good reasons.


But like, I would be shocked to.

And, but like, if he's not, you don't
really give him Maya's character, any

resolution or in, in this story, you
know, because otherwise, like you have,

oh, a shifted focus to the, really the
person who's responsible for killing dad.


But the vengeance is still there, but
at least it's shifted to the right

person, you know, quote unquote right.

Person if we had the apology
scene, but this scene gives it

as if, oh, She got her revenge.

She got to kill this guy, but we know
no one believes he's actually dead.

So what does that mean for that
character within the series?

So that, that's why it's just that,
that seems so problematic in that way.

That's her

Trey: character growth was
with Clint, not Fisk, right?

That's where, that's where
it was supposed to be.

Um, I won't, we can, again,
I'll save that for the wrap up.

I'm not going to go too far down
that rabbit hole, but I'm with you.

I, I know this is going to sound
contradictory cause I just talked about

the potential of like, oh, maybe this was
a way for Kasi to be able to be around

Fisk, without him questioning, having,
taking that damage with the arrow.

But on the Fisk side of things,
I never want to see the camera

pull away gunshot fake out again
because it's just not satisfying.

Like the two options we have is
it's clear, he's coming back in for

whatever series he'll be back or two.

We're just delaying something until
the next show starts and it's.

That's cliffhanger for cliffhanger sake.

I think there's no momentum in it.

And so I just, I don't like it.

I'm done with it.

I don't want to see that use anymore.

So for all the, uh, the story writers
and the show makers out there, here's

my one stance as if it has weight.

But, uh, I do want to speak some positives
because it, it does feel like we've been

overly not overly critical, but we've
been pretty critical here at the end.

Um, you know, regardless of the use of.


I do like what it speaks about
Kate, because she was holding her

own against him in that toy shop.

Um, you know, you talked about
going from the Fisher-Price

mafia to the kingpin himself.

They demonstrated so well in the way she
goes flying across the room every time he,

even at first where he's not even hitting
her, he's just deflecting her off him.

And she goes flying to demonstrate
the disparity in their strength.

And yet she keeps getting back up.

And that is that's the superhero moment
of another one of her superhero moments.

Jude: And I don't mean like, oh, she
was able to, because like that's big

guy and this is little Kate like that.

I don't care.

I'm probably really fine with,
you can go stand up to them.

It was just the evolution we see
in that what you did with the

tracksuit mafia, you got to face.

You Elena and Yulaina,
wasn't trying to kill you.

You're an obstacle in my way.

And then you get to have this.

And so you're, you're seeing Kate level
up and all of a sudden, this is supposed

to be this minute, you know, Wilson
visibles to be this menacing person.

It's like, it's like, wait a minute.

You just kept a couple
of levels to get here.

Does that make sense?

It does

Trey: make sense.

The saving grace, I think I
genuinely don't believe Fisk

was trying to kill Kate.

I think he was reading her as
like, you are no threat to me.

I'm not even giving you the respect
you deserve to try and put you down.

He squatting her like a fly and his
mistake is that he's not fully on guard.

So when he steps to her and
she pulls off, Rob was right.

Checkoffs coin flip.

She pulls off her hero moment there.

So she takes advantage of him.

Not respecting her as a threat.


Jude: No.

And that makes sense.

Trey: That's fair.

And that's just my read of the scene.

Jude: And he has that alive.

You're starting to annoy me

Trey: like, yeah.

And again, I didn't take it as like
you were, were questioning because I

mean, it's the superhero shows, right?

Like questioning like,
oh, that's not realistic.

Like she's here fending off him.

I see what you mean about feeling too
quick, as far as the leveling up goes.

But for me, the reason it worked
is because I think it was just

the lack of care that he was
giving to her as a threat.

Jude: Yeah.



Shall we spend our
Christmas with the Bartons?


Trey: Okay.

We got one more thing to talk about.

We do before we can go to the holiday

Jude: party.


I like parties.

Trey: The, anyway, we got
one more thing to cover.

At least I do.

And a.

That is the resolution
with Eleanor and Kate man.

The thing that makes Eleanor such a
compelling character is that you almost

start to become sympathetic for it.

At least I did because we learned how
the reason she got involved was because

after her husband is gone, she fell into
the debts that he owed to the kingpin.

And even though he's clicked quick
to point out that like, Hey, you

know, Pretty good for yourself too.

Even after you've repaid those
debts, you can almost see the way

she was trying to live this dual life
of being tied to this mafia while

giving her daughter a good life.

However, my skin crawled and the way
that she was talking down to Kate in

that, you know, you can't just keep
living these lives without consequences.

As she's literally trying to argue her
way out of being held accountable for what

she's done with the police sirens growing.

And then she turns from being
sympathetic to being the villain.

And SES says to Kate,
is this what heroes do?

Arrest their mothers on Christmas?

God is so good, but God, I hated

Jude: it shows.

Manipulative she is.



I love it.

Um, it was, so it was good.

It was so good.

But for me again, God, it's so weird.

Cause I truly genuinely mean
that this is one B to Loki's

one a as far as the finales go.

Um, my favorite show was one division
and I'm going to put this right up

there with it, maybe ahead of it.

It sounds weird, but I felt like
they landed the finale far better

than the one division finale.

Um, but I go back to that fist
being a distraction for that.

You know, because you have your right.

It was just all of that, that
conversation, but it's kind of like,

this is after the big fight with Fisk,
it's kind of, it just felt so much

like an afterthought to, to, we got
to have this action sequence in here.

And so, yeah, that, and even
the cool thing with the trick

arrows while that's your typical
Marvel, like we got to have that.

I didn't feel like that for me, the way
the Fisk Kate Bishop fight felt like that.

So, so yeah, but no, you're right.

Like, it was so good, but it
felt downplayed for me on, but

by the overall show I got ya.

But yeah, like she could have
waited to boxing day, December 26th.

Well, you know what,

Trey: before we get to December
26, let's get tear December 25th.

And as you so eloquently stated, let's
spend Christmas with the Bartons, which is

our next most important topic and is going
to take us through the scenes where Clint

has finally telled to his promise, made it
home in time for Christmas and has brought

a couple of strays with him as well.

Uh, starting with me this time.

I think the thing that I walked away
from in this final scene is realizing

how much emotion they have been able
to get out of Clint's farm in three

appearances, age of Ultron in game,
and now Hawkeye like that location,

Jude: infinity.

No, it wasn't game.



Trey: Yeah.

That location has quickly become such
a standout in the MCU, which this could

be a topic for another day, but of
like so few locations, I think there's

not a lot of homesteads in the MCU.

Jude: Well, in, in the fact, at least from
end game to this one that they got the

same place helped, you know what I mean?

Oh yeah.

Trey: 100.

So, yeah, I thought that was worth noting.

Jude: Oh yeah.


Cause it, it immediately,
you're just like, oh, that's

where that's the side door.

He was snuck in and in game
to grab the baseball glove.


Trey: there's the barn
where Nick fury was hiding

Jude: it.

It was

Trey: great.

So there's really two quick
things that we can talk about.

And I'm going to start with this one
because outside of, you know, patting

ourselves on the back, we were right.

Laura was a former agent and that explains
a lot of her involvement and know-how

and working partnership with Clint.

But this is a huge moment in
the MCU because it is one of the

first times that we have seen.

A overwrite of a character, if
that's a fair way to put it in the

revelation that the watch is designated
19 agent 19, which is Mockingbird,

which is who Laura is in the MCU.

Despite the fact that agents of shield
has treaded this ground already.

How did that make you feel?

If anything, at all, to see
that Laura is age at 19, I liked

Jude: it.

I'm happy with it.

I mean, I knew it was going
to be some kind of an agent.

Um, I liked a little
banter back and forth.

Take care of your stuff.

Look, who's talking, you know, and
I like, that's the one she said

right back, but it was just, yeah.

Take care of your stuff.

Um, you know, um, but in a, you know,
married way, it was just fantastic.

Um, you know what, I'm, I'm glad
it's, I'm glad to station 19.

Um, and that's the way we're going to go.

I enjoyed that character and agents of.

I thought it was fantastic.

You do run into, you know, you
step out of, in world stuff and you

start questioning and here's again.

My grudge against Morbius
Morbius is that right?


Every time I say Morbius I think
Morpheus Morbius um, I think

Moebius, yeah, I don't do that.

It's a movie it's just Morpheus.

Um, well, cause he, he should have died
to the first original matrix and anyways,

that's all there is she stay on target
as much as I liked that part of agents

of shield and that character specifically
in agents of shield, I know that when

they're picking characters and stuff,
they want a variety of skillsets and

like visually on screen, you know, to
show off Ironman and, and cap and what

they're animating and visual effects.

And now these two characters are similar.

So we want to have, um, you know,
when you're thinking about those

dynamics and those types of things and
doing it this way just works better.

Then to have another agent.

I mean, we're following agent Carter.

Now the power broker, you have
Clint Barton Hawkeye passing on the

mantle of Hawkeye to Kate Bishop.

We have black widow.

Um, you're going to have Monica Rimbaud
and it's just like, do you want another

prominent human agent running around?

You know, the answer is probably
no, you know what I mean?

Um, in terms of thinking, in terms
of the variety of skillsets that,

that you're going to have on screen.

So mockingbirds not really a character,
that's probably going to be used.

And so I think this is a really cool
nod to Hawkeye and that comic line

where they were married and all of that.

So, yeah, it was great.

Trey: It affirms where I've always
landed when it comes to the agents

of shield, because not again, not to
discredit a lot of fan base for that show.

A lot of love.

At one point it was designated to be
in Canon with the shows, but as time

has gone on and the inner workings
of studio politics, it has not been

the case as much towards the end,
but it affirms what I felt, where

it is cannon until otherwise stated.

And I appreciate the overstatement.

It makes here because I like the
history that it leads like, you

know, so often I talk about a
lived in world that lived in world.

It creates between Clint and
Laura AK Mockingbird is in

leaves room for the imagination.

And I like that.

Jude: Yeah, and now it does
make me wonder, are we going

to get to see some flashbacks?

Is she going to get to
actually have some action?

Cause you know, Linda
Carboline is fantastic.

Um, but I it's a good way to do it.

Trey: Yeah.

Well the final thing I think we got,
we have Christmas with the Bartons

is the final scene where they are
burning the Ronan suit and they

are joking back and forth about
what Kate's new name should be.

Lady Hawk, Hawk shot.

And so on,

Jude: by the way,


Trey: was pretty good.

I like that one a lot.

Uh, it does have a hockey field
to it, but of all the names

listed hock shot was pretty

Jude: easy to say it
has a hockey feel to it.

I did.


Trey: And I probably, I'm not
making a joke off a Hawk and hope

Jude: the sport hockey, H a w K Y O R I R.


That's what I said.

It's my head cleaner.

Trey: Oh, really?

You know, I just want to say I,
I spotlighted in the beginning

of this episode, how I felt like
Clint saying we're partners was

less him truly believing it and
trusting her to grow into it.

This scene feels like another affirmation
of that for me, because despite knowing

and trusting that she is capable,
Kate still gets to be that thorn in

his side with the way that he just
antagonizes her or he, she antagonizes

him with the silly, goofy names that
is trivial to the superheroes side.

But Kate gets to enjoy that part too.

And I love it.

Jude: Yeah.


Now she's for forever.

She will be Kate Bishop in Elena's voice.

Oh, Bishop that's that's her, that's
her super hero of injury name,

Kate Bishop, but in Elena's voice.

Trey: So good.

Also worth noting.

One of the important parts of the scene
is the road in suits being burned.

And that's not the thing
we've reached to, to talk

Jude: about.

Oh yeah, that happened.

Didn't it.

Trey: But I digress.

I'll leave it for the wrap-up episode.

Jude: No, leave it for the wrap up.

Trey: I think that's going to wrap up
the important topics for this episode,

which leaves us stray thoughts.

So do, did you have any stray
thoughts for this episode?

Jude: I had a couple and I'm going
to, I'm going to make them quick.

Um, I love that there was foam LARPing
swords in the wallet grills house, uh,

making the trick arrows was a good scene.

You know, we talked about that.

I got her double-check if I'm remembering.

I think the song that was playing sounded
very similar, if not the same to the

song playing during home alone, when he
was Kevin was setting up all his traps.

I want to go double check that.

Cause I think it was, um, last
one when Kate, when Elena shoved

Kate against the glass wall and
started sliding her down with her

face Mudge you hear the streaking?

That was hilarious.

And of course, Jack, you know,
enjoying his moment, it was great.

Trey: The fact I completely misread
them this entire season, but the fact

that he is Kate grown up and just
wants his own superhero moment for

all the ways I feel he's a doofus.

I love that.

At least that was a swerve.

I was not expecting.

Oh man.

So firing through some of my straight
thoughts pretty quickly, you know,

again, I've already lamented how much
I did not like Fisk's attire when this

episode, but whenever the Hawaiian
shirt is first debuted, there's a

part of me that feels like he wasn't
entirely expecting Maya to show up.

So my own personal Canon is that
Fisk and Kasi were having their own

whole I and themed Christmas party.

And that's why he's dressed up because
they totally have like decorations

in the background for something.

So they had prior plans to Maya, uh,
disrupting them, uh, another stray

thought, love how Jack made fun of on
the seventh for peeing at the Hamptons.

That's the Jack that
I want to see more of.

Like, I understand we needed the
Mr X, but man, I would have liked

some more of that angle of him just
being a petty, want to be super.

Oh, uh, this one's trivial at the very
beginning of the episode where Clint and

Kate are discussing what they're going
to do after the fallout of Eleanor's

relevation revelation, uh, the coffee mugs
they have, or totally coffee mugs that

I've used for props in my own side gig as
a, uh, product photography with coffee.

And I thought that was cool.

And finally had to play off what you were
saying about the face against the glass.

You know, Kate has checked
off a lot of inaugural MCU.

First, the first one being,
being able to fall from an.

Hi place and not take any damage.

And the second one being, being,
uh, shoved across a glass mirror,

comedically, which seems to be
something that happens to Thor a lot.

So she's, uh, she's checking off
that MCU list pretty quickly.


Jude: very much so.


Trey: I think that will wrap up our
stray thoughts, which will leave

us with our listeners first takes.

And again, this is, it's always
bittersweet when we get to the end

of a series, because I know we're not
gonna be able to do this for a while,

but once again, thank you all so much
for chiming in with your first taste.

Cause these are genuinely fun to read.

And that being said, uh,
this one starts with just Mr.

Melt from Twitter and it reads great
bow for the gift that is the season.

Everything felt neatly wrapped and
even included a few little extras

that really made it one of the
best things to receive this year.

One great extra was Hawaiian shirt Fisk.

So I may disagree with.

Jude: I'm with you.

You're Fisk.

You wear what

Trey: you want.

He's one step away from
being the, oh yeah.

I'm busting through the freaking wall.

Jude: Like a Kool-Aid man though.

He is I'm kingpin.

I set the trends.

Trey: Speaking of the
trend, it's your turn?

Jude: So bitter like, oh my gosh.

If this, if this would have happened
in January, this is the new truck

it's going happen in January.

This is the new truck.

And I'd be like sending you Hawaiian
churches gifts from kin on Twitter.

Great episode.

It is my favorite end to a
Disney plus MTU show by far very

satisfying and season appropriate.

I'm also really glad that Marvel
sort of granted my request from

episode one in the mid credit scene.

Yeah, I'm really happy about that.

That they added the mid credit scene
at the end to completely agree with

you on the favorite end to Disney
plus, et cetera, right there with Loki.

I will.

I agree with him though, in that
I thought they were going to

use, I'll be home for Christmas.

Um, you know, you can count on me as
the song pulling in and they didn't

little disappointed in that his
prediction there didn't come through.

Trey: You know what?

I changed their mind.

They completely dropped the ball.

This is the worst Disney


Uh, moving along, uh, this one comes in
from Ben dot Maddie on Insta, and it reads

an amazing finale to an amazing show.

And, uh, you know, again, I, I talked
about on my pre-school or thoughts about

being a little disappointed, but overall,
it's hard to deny that this is one of the

better finales of the Disney plus shows,

Jude: uh, from friend Daniel
and Instagram love the emotional

beats and ready for season two.

They do announce it already.

I'm surprised they haven't right.

I will be okay if they don't announce a
season two, if they announce the movie,

but one of them has to be announced soon.


Trey: If I don't get my show up, I'll be
happy if I get my movie, but either way

I have my demands, Kevin FYGI all right.

That sounds like my turn overall good.

But I have a few issues with
the watch and that mid credit

scene from caption life on Insta.

Uh, it is very fitting that we have
made it all the way to the end of the

listeners first takes and we have not on
our part, discussed the mid credit scene

of the full Rogers, the musical thing.

So I think we might be there with you on
how we felt about that as a mid credit

Jude: scene.

Real quick.

I'm happy with the mid credit
scene because everybody I talked

to was like, oh, I want to see it.

I want to see this.

I want to see this.

And they gave it to us.

And so I can't complain about it.

Uh, it doesn't feel like we got an in
credit scene or in the traditional sense.

And so, and this is the second, second
series in a row with Loki, uh, again,

live action, uh, where we didn't get
an end credit scene that really is

going to propel anything forward.

Um, because I'm sorry to just
to stamp a season two that's.

That was part of the, yeah, no, um,
here's how they could have fixed it in

one of three ways they could have had Paul
Rudd and Evangeline Lilly in the crowd.

And Paul just like shaking his head and
saying like, that was a tough day and

vigilant Lily looking at him like you
weren't even there with him on the stage.

Like they, that should have been.

You know, cause, uh, you know, I,
man watch this finished production.

Um, they could have done that
quick shot for them, uh, or

they could have had Tatiana Ms.

Lonnie and mark ruffle in the
crowd and do some kind of comment

because she Oaks coming out sear.

And finally, this is the one I think they
really should have gone with, but this

is where Helaina and Kate get their girls
night and you have them in the crowd.

And then Yulaina says the line
there's such posers right there

at the end and everybody clapping.

So like any of those three makes that
in mid credit, a hundred percent better.

That's my feet

Trey: about how everybody on social media
was saying, give, give me the full thing.

I want the full thing.

And so you can't complain about it.

You know how kids sometimes
want dessert before.

You still don't give the
dessert, even though that's what

they ask until after dinner.

And this was us getting the
dessert before thinner dinner.

Uh, I wasn't, I have, I have not rewatched
it since my original, uh, viewing and it's

just like, it's neither here nor there.

I just, I wish it would have been
something more your fixes I think

definitely would have had me warm up to it
a little bit more, but like, I don't know.

I wasn't a fan of it.

Jude: Yeah, no, I get it.

It's it's okay.

Like I

Trey: had to be the villain

Jude: at some point I'm with you.

Cause I like, I've seen it three
times, but two of them, I didn't go

rewatch the musical number, you know?

So I, I agree with you on that.

Like I, you know, um, I just
don't, I'm just not as down on

it, as I think is every, is as I'm
seeing, um, there's people with

me that, yeah, I'm glad we got it.

I loved it.

But yeah, I'm not rewatching it.

Trey: Yeah.

I won't hold it against the show,
like, but it's, I'm a little

disappointed, but we're spoiled.

How, how many hours of MCU content
have we gotten this entire year?

Jude: A ton.

Trey: Oh man.

Well, again, thank you all so much
for chatting in with your first takes.

It has been an absolute blast to
get to read these on the show.

Um, I know it's gonna be a while
before we get to do this, but if you're

listening and you want to get in on this
at some point, you can always follow

us at MCU need to know on Twitter and
Instagram, which is a great way to keep

a lookout for our call to actions when
it comes to chime again with these.


Jude: Do us a favor.

If you like, what you hear,
please share with a friend.

Join our discord.

Make sure you click on the role
of sign and the IMO genes to have

access to all this polar channels.

Trey: And of course, if you could be
so kind, uh, leave us a rating and

review, you know, normally we say to
do it on whatever podcast platform

of your choice is, but I want to
highlight that Spotify has finally

allowed people to start rating the show.

So if you're listening on Spotify, if
you can go ahead and give us a star

rating, we would greatly appreciate
it, uh, cause that could help booster

our results, uh, in the search history.

And of course we'd like to thank Nick
Sandy for these of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can find more of his work
on the SoundCloud, which is

linked in the show notes as well.

That's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you tray.

We'll see you all next year.


That's enough.

So starting with you, Jude,
is there anywhere you'd

like to start in particular?

Jude: Um, let's see.

Party preparations.

I love that.

I love the CRA the title.

First off we did for the section, just
because the whole Christmas theme.


Of cause like, okay.

Can you edit all that out?

Yeah, sure.

I was just like, I had like
six thoughts all happen at once

and just, I couldn't do it.

Trey: My favorite.

Like there's no better demonstration
of how all six thoughts happen at once,

where there wasn't a breath between
that last stumble and edit this out.

You became to Cholla delete that footage.

Jude: Yes, that's exactly.

Exactly what happened.


Trey: All right.

So I guess if you want to just start over
from the, uh, where do you want to start?

Jude: Yeah, I'm going to
start over from there.

Join our Discord here
As always, share with a friend
and shout out Nick Sandy