What If...? Guardians of the Multiverse Review S1E9: The Door was More of a Metaphor

Every episode of What If is finally out and we're here to talk about the Guardians of the Multiverse, what worked for the series, and what didn't!

Trey: Hello and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe and everything you need to Know.

I'm Trey.

Jude: I'm Jude, how are you doing, Trey?

Trey: Man, it's it's weird.

Whenever it's just us at this point,
I think going into this year, we had

this goal of doing more guest episodes.

I'd say mission accomplished.

If it's gotten to the point where it
feels weird when it's just you and me.

Oh,

Jude: right.

Like it's so funny.

I, with the guests, I have a
different, slightly different audio

set up and I was setting this one
up this time and I'm just like, oh

wait, no, I got to do this instead.

So yeah, it is definitely weird, but
it was so much fun having all these.

Trey: Yeah, four weeks, you know,
we had Nick, we had friend Daniel

Elitch and TK, and it's, it's always
interesting to get people's, uh,

varying opinions week to week.

Cause I think at this point, you
and I know fairly well what we're

going to expect from the other and
what, how we'll receive the episode.

So adding in that guest dynamic
is a fun little, uh, variable.

Oh yeah.

I will say this though.

In preparation for this episode, knowing
we didn't have a guest, I got lazy.

Like I felt like I kept pushing
off like, oh, I got to take notes.

Oh, I got time, Kevin.

Instead of like, oh, I
got to prep for the intro.

I got to write what I'm going to say
about the person and all this and that.

It was like, oh, I got time.

Jude: Just Jude.

This is just too weird.

Well, I tell you what.

I didn't get lazy.

It, I will say it was, it
was, and he texted me this.

So it was a different experience.

I have some, our normal recording night
is Thursday as we talked about, but

we're recording on a Wednesday because
I have something to do Thursday and

then I will be in town this weekend.

And so expect to hear something with
the two of us in the same room for the

first time in awhile, I'm super excited.

Trey: I'm so excited about it.

I think it'll be the, the only, the
third time that we've done this.

And the last time we did this,
the Metta episodes were born.

So who knows, who knows what
could happen when we get to,

Jude: I think we've learned,
knock on wood, how to do two

people audio in the same room.

Trey: Well, clearly by
saying, knock on wood.

We know nothing about it,

but, uh, yeah, I'm feeling, I'm
feeling a little bit more confident

about a two person set up, so
hopefully that'll be fine and dandy.

Jude: Yes.

So super excited about that.

Trey: Well, regarding this episode, we're
going to continue something we started

last week that I'm really excited about.

Uh, like we said, we're trying to live
up to the MCU, need to know name by

curating various articles throughout the
week that happened in between recording

sessions of the most important news.

We think you need to know within the MCU.

So after talking about it, uh, and
honestly kind of thankful on such

a short turnaround since we're, we
are doing this Wednesday, we had

an article that dropped today with
perfect timing and it is called.

Inside.

Marvel's what if finale season two plans
and the, to Charla spinoff that never

was by Adam, be very over on variety.com.

So essentially what this is, is an
article where, uh, Adam interviewed

the creators of what if and asked
them a variety of questions in which

we got answers about a season two
plans, the idea that there would have

been a, to Charla spinoff without the
passing of, um, uh, Chadwick Boseman.

Um, so yeah, dude, what did
you think about this article?

Was there anything that stood
out to you in particular?

Jude: Just I think just the overall,
you know, point of the article, I guess

that that is something, as soon as
I heard it, I was like, wow, that is

something I really would want to see.

You know, I think that would be a fun
mix, uh, to Charla and Peter Quill.

I'm assuming they would get Chris Pratt.

You know, to do that, but to have
the two of them play off of each

other just seemed like so much fun.

And so, yeah, so it, it saddens me
to know that that was a possibility

that, that we're not going to get.

Um, but it also.

Makes me hopeful and, and seeing
the things that they thought about

and the pairings that they thought
about that we wouldn't have seen

on the big screen, you know?

And so that really helps me
look forward to season two.

Yeah.

And,

Trey: and I think like, even at its
worst, I know I've been pretty critical

of the, what if season one so far.

Uh, but even at its worst, I think that
there are backdoor pilots into potential

full shows into this, because that was
one of the number one complaints, right.

Like I wish this would have been longer.

I wish this would have
had more time to breathe.

Having a whole series is
exactly what I was looking for

for some of these plot lines.

So yeah, that would have been really

Jude: cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You, you know what, that's,
that's a good point.

Like some of the plot lines.

Uh, that, that each individual episode
got, could have had its own season.

Trey: Well, we will definitely
link it to the article.

There's a lot of great stuff in there.

They even have an answer, uh, from
Brian Andrews, the director of

what if, uh, regarding how they
tackle the stakes in a multi-verse.

So it's well worth the read and you can
find a link to it in our show notes.

Yes.

But of course, we are going to be
talking about season one, episode

nine of what, if which is entitled,
what if the watcher broke his oath?

So the way we're going to handle this is
we've got some pre spoiler thoughts, and

that'll be the section for us to discuss
the episode without getting into too

many spoilers, uh, that will be followed
by an audio cue, which will bring us

into the spoiler zone, where it will be
fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.

So before we get there, Jude, do you have
any pre spoiler thoughts for this finale?

I

Jude: liked it, you know,
and it's interesting.

Right before we started recording.

I mentioned in my second
watch, I liked it less.

Um, you know, and, but, but I,
I did genuinely the first time

around, enjoy it even the second
time around, I genuinely enjoyed it.

I think it was one of those things
that as I'm trying to take notes on it

just, I don't wanna say it didn't hold
up because I think I, I think that's

putting too much expectations on these
episodes, like in comparison to, to

what I'm looking forward to Disney plus
show, or we're looking forward to movie.

So in, in that way, you know, when I
say it didn't hold up, but like, yeah.

I mean, did that kind of like
scrutiny, I guess, but otherwise,

like, I, I thought it ended well and
I'm glad that they were, they did

take that direction with its ending.

Um, it did though, make me wonder,
cause I know there was supposed

to be more episodes and I think
some COVID issues with product.

Caused that to, to, to not happen.

So I'm curious as to what choices
were made to make those changes.

So, you know,

Trey: just to play off something
you said, I think something we

have, we keep running into the
longer that we cover these series.

Uh, cause I, I had that same feeling
with you, even though I ended up

liking this episode more, the feeling.

Uh, we keep bumping into, when we do to
these notes is like the finale or the last

act of, of Marvel property is always that
action set piece, or that would seem to

feel like, so it, it becomes hard to rate
it accordingly if, if that makes sense.

So I feel what you were saying
there and that preschooler

thought yeah, that makes sense.

But, uh, yeah, bringing it back to
them, to my other priest, sort of the

thoughts, you know, we always share,
uh, what we thought up on social media.

So the thing that I wrote was
that the episode showed that you

definitely need more than one episode
for these characters to breathe.

Um, it, it doesn't necessarily have
to be this huge crossover event,

but just more time with these
characters goes a really long way in

making me actually care about them.

And.

Yeah, it proved that there is a nugget
of entertainment value with these

characters in this episode, because I
I've been super critical of this season,

especially in this last half, but,
uh, I thoroughly enjoyed this finale.

Um, the most critical I'll get here in the
pre spoiler is that it felt like in game

of what is like the end game of what if,
and that it needed to wrap up everything.

The difference being that since not
everything works for me and what

if we still had to take time to
pay off things that didn't work.

So that's where this episode
kind of was a little uneven.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and that was something
going in to this episode as

well of was it necessary to link
everything because it's a multiple.

You know, I'm like, are you
going to embrace fully that it's

a multi-verse and we're really
looking at all these universes.

Um, or do you still feel that urge
for this unity in we're gonna combine,

you know, tie everything together?

So, uh, I not going to say like, oh,
they should have just not, but w I mean,

priests were their thoughts, but I, they
could have gone either way, I think.

And it'd be okay.

Trey: You reminded me, there's
an article I need to send you.

And I think if I can remember, this
is this wasn't planned part of the

outline, so I don't have it verbatim,
but I think it was titled the MCU

will never tell complete stories.

And it was talking exactly
about what you were mentioning.

So I want to link that to you and
also Lincoln in the show notes,

because I think it's worth the read.

Oh, absolutely.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Uh, but of course, those are
our pre spoiler thoughts.

We're going to go ahead and
get into the spoiler zone.

So like we said, uh, you're gonna hear
an audio cue in on the other side.

It'll be fair game for
all spoilers in the MCU.

We'll see you on the other side

and we're back.

So, uh, we're going to go with
that three act structure breakdown.

Uh, act one is going to start from the
beginning of the episode where we start

with captain Carter and black widow on the
lamina and star all the way to the point

where the guardians of the multi-verse
have solidified and decided to take on

the mission to stop infinite, Ultron.

Uh, so Jude, is there anywhere you'd
like to start within this first act?

You know what

Jude: I do like that we started with.

The reenactment recreation.

I don't know what to call it, but with
a winter soldier and Peggy Carter, you

know, cause, cause I think we talked
about this a little bit on pod, probably

more off pod, uh, within this past week
that, you know, the only way, what if

works really is if it's rooted in some
kind of contexts that we're familiar

with and then you've got to break away.

Uh, so I, I liked that they
still set us in, um, that

familiarity of winter soldier.

Um, and it also made me think,
man, I want more of captain Carter.

Like I, I want more of that, that story.

Trey: Speaking of backdoor pilots, we
need an entire captain Carter series.

I would watch that in mostly because
she works so well as a character.

Jude: Yeah.

I would just love to see the captain
Carter and just making an animated.

Yeah.

Like there's no need to, to make it live.

Action.

I'd be okay with an animated
captain Carter series.

Trey: Yeah.

I still hope we get a live action
adaptation at some point, but

yeah, a live action series.

I mean, uh, animated
series would go really?

Jude: Yeah.

And I, and I get it.

You're right.

There's, there's an element of Haley at,
well, let's get her on screen captain.

Carter's fantastic.

But I'm also, I scroll through Disney
plus and I think about, you know,

we got finally got the Blackwood and
we, we had captain Marvel, right.

We're going to get the marvels.

We got one division, but you start
thinking about those, uh, female led,

you know, we're, we're gonna get she
whole can, you're gonna get that.

Um, Oh, what was that?

Ms.

Marvel?

Um, I just said the marvels.

I don't know.

I couldn't think of Ms.

Marvel, but I mean, you
get the idea, right?

We're getting all those shows.

Uh, there's live action shows and
you start thinking about, well,

okay, these are rated essentially
the television equivalent of PG 13.

You know, a man, when I think of
like Spider-Man and his ultimate

friends, um, or ultimate Spider-Man
is when I'm thinking of Spiderman

and friends, ultimate, I combined
the shows of injures assembled.

And you think about those things,
it'd be so great to have that.

And with Peggy Carter as well.

Trey: I see what you're saying.

You know, I, I do want to circle
back to what you were saying about

starting with the familiarity of winter
soldier with camp and black widow.

The biggest criticism I walked away from
in that first episode with captain Carter,

was that like, okay, I liked it, but I
felt like we just kept recreating what had

already been done in the first Avenger.

I've been really trying to reassess
how I feel, because in contrast to that

episode, I felt like it did work well here
because that straight up was the winter

soldier, like down to the conversations
they were having the, uh, embarking on

the ship and taking down all those agents.

Like it was almost a one-to-one
shot, but there was something about

the confidence of this episode
and how it started with them.

Like there, there felt like there
was already history between camp

and black widow and it felt like
watching a believable friendship.

And I liked that a lot and it
really became the backbone.

I think, of this particular episode,
like their established relationship

and that opening shot set up so much
of the emotional core of this episode.

And I really enjoyed that.

Jude: Um, Hmm.

Trey: And one thing to add while you're
thinking about that, captain Carter

is so much better at handling love
loss than Steve was because she can

actually joke about losing Steven this
universe, where Steve was always just

kind of like solid looking over Peggy.

Jude: Yeah, like it you're right.

It was, it was exactly the same
thing, but it did, it felt different.

Um, it felt right.

You know, it just, it just
was so awesome and so good.

And you know, the through line and I
know it's happens in the third act, but

the through line all the way to the end.

It's interesting.

My second watch there's things
that, that is like, again, that note

taking critical illness where I'm
like, okay, but what about this?

You know what I mean?

Um, that I didn't ask in the first.

Watch and I just enjoyed it, but
that's, again, it's an overall

issue with the series and you know,
what I think caused the problems

for me is when it was started,

it was actually, it was actually
before then, but yeah, party

thrower really ruined it.

Um, honestly it was,
it was when it started.

Um, and we, we wrestled with
this, with water vision, right.

This whole, let the show do its thing.

Take the show in.

You know, don't get caught up in
expectations, um, in terms of like,

I'm expecting to see this, or I want
this to happen and it doesn't happen.

Right.

Everybody in Reed Richards on, uh,
what ended up being a throwaway

line, you know, like they, they
wanted to make a big deal about the

vehicle and how cool the vehicle was.

And everybody was just like,
where's Reed Richards, you know?

And so the text message.

Yeah.

Right.

But it's kind of the same thing
here, I think once before, what if

came out and they started having
those announcements and talking

about how, oh, this is cannon and.

I wish I wouldn't have had that
stuck in my head because that

took me down some paths that I
probably shouldn't have gone down.

And I'm also going that from the, from the
same point when leach was on, I mentioned

it, the star wars visions, knowing
ahead of time that it wasn't cannon any

of it as I'm watching these episodes.

I'm like, I'm not all worried
about is that RGD too?

Or, oh, look, that's Java.

And it's just an episode
and it's for fun, you know?

And, and I, and I think I would have
enjoyed what if series as a whole

more, if I would've had that mindset,

Trey: I've been thinking about it.

This is something I wanted to bring up
and I don't know where I would've put it

in my notes, but I think it works here.

I feel like what if as a show has a
bit of an identity crisis, and I say

that playing off what you were talking
about on the expectation of this being

like, oh, this is totally cannon.

You know, we've mentioned as well,
it's in this weird space where.

It can exist without the Canon of the
prime timeline, but it also, isn't really

contributing to the prime timeline.

And then from episode to episode, it's
just kind of totally all over the place.

And so I think I understand what
you're saying about like, if this

wouldn't have been marketed as
like, oh yeah, this is totally.

I probably wouldn't have been as
precious about the storylines.

So I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

And before you continue, I'm
gonna go ahead and say this.

Uh, we have already decided that
we're not doing a wrap-up episode.

Normally, whenever we cover a series
on Disney plus we cover every episode.

And the week after the finale, we do a
wrap up episode where we essentially asked

the question, did it work and talk about
things we liked and didn't like about it?

Um, I think if I can speak for
both of us, we've been conflicted

with the season overall.

So rather than just doing a full
episode to it, we're kind of baking

that into here because we didn't want
to just have a whole episode read

where like, you know, I didn't like it.

Jude: Yeah.

And I mean, to pull it back to this
finale, you know, some of my notes.

I was like, why were you grabbing Thor and
not the, the, the frost giant, low key,

you know, like, I don't like that didn't
make sense to me in terms of, I mean,

you grabbed and I loved it cause they
said like Gomorrah, Kamora, dear Lord.

No more.

And, and, and singing in the rain it's
we talked the whole night through, but

I'd seen it to the girls saying, um, you
slept the whole night through celebration.

Trey: Um, my mom, I think did
an alternate version of that.

Cause I just remember whenever she
would wake us up for school, she'd

be like, good morning, good mode.

But I don't remember.

I never, and you know what, until,
until this day, I didn't know

that was from singing in the rain.

I thought it was a swing that

Jude: she was saying, love singing
in the rain, seen it at the theater.

Never seen it.

Oh my gosh.

The kids love singing in the rain.

Like we, we saw it in the theater.

It's fantastic.

And we're time travelers.

Uh, but yeah, so like Gomorrah survivor
of Sakaar it's like, oh wow, good.

Maura was once a car and
survives the car, you know?

Um, you got a little hint of Tony.

And this hope Buster outfit on
nevertheless like that, that was all cool.

You know?

And you went with Thor rather than
low-key, you know what I mean?

And that's the thing is like,
if you're going to do the,

what if like lean into it, man?

Beta Ray bill or give us, you know,
frog Thor, you know, like, like what,

like w when you have that open canvas,
you know, and so, and so that's what I

mean where it's just like, it was just
too, it was just, I dunno what, I'm

kind of losing my point here and I'm
sorry about that, but I it's just those

things, like just didn't work for me.

I did like seeing Natasha
over and over again.

Right.

And getting clearly different
versions of Natasha though.

My second watch, there was a few issues
I had, but, you know, it was just like

to challah bringing it to Charlie.

And I was like, that
was awesome, you know?

Um, or I wish they would have grabbed
pepper or Shiri instead of Kilburn.

Trey: That's what I was
going to chime in with.

Like I get by the end of it, you
have, and I'm skipping ahead of it.

You have that moment where strangers
like, oh, you foresaw everything.

That's why you brought in Kilmore.

But like that, is that really like, this
is what if that's the only way that you

could have separated the stone was by
bringing in Killmonger, like even the

way that the watcher addresses them.

He's like murderer of Tony stark.

Like, yeah.

It didn't feel like you actually
needed to have Killmonger there.

And the other thing I was going to say
is that I held my tongue last week when

I S I wanted to say that so far, it
feels like the only essential episodes

we got as of last week was the Dr.

Strange episode.

And then the, what if Ultron one episode,
those are the only two episodes that

felt like it built off anything, but I
held my tongue because I thought, okay,

you know, we're most likely gonna get
this big crossover in the finale, and

it's probably going to pay things off.

It's so funny to me again, I do
like this episode, but it's so

funny to me that I felt that I was
like, oh, I'll give it a chance.

And then one of the first few people
that we recruit is somebody from

something we haven't even seen before.

Like, it wasn't, you didn't need
to do the setup of every individual

person because it worked like you
had Gomorrah here and he was fine.

Like, we, we were educated enough
on the, the, the wa the rules of

the, what if universe that like,
you could pluck whoever you wanted.

So it felt weird that it both had this
impulse where you had to set up people

and bring them into this, but also prove
that didn't really need that either.

Jude: Yeah.

Right.

Because that's the thing is, I
think we, as an audience accepts

the premise of what if and so, you
know, which is a fine line, right?

Because you can go back to my buddy, Sean.

He's like, I want to see
something way out there.

I don't want you to rehash old
stuff, but the premise of what is.

You, you have to revisit old stuff
cause you have to have something

to ponder to what if on, right?

Yeah.

And there was times where in this show,
this, bring it back to the episode

and this episode where they were
leaning on prior knowledge or the work

they'd done from previous episodes.

Okay.

Fine.

But they didn't lean on
within the other episodes.

Our prior knowledge enough
to take those chances.

To go out and do something
radically different, like the

Gomorrah, you know, they're, they
relied on that prior knowledge and

just went out there and got it.

You know?

Well, even location-wise, they've
never done a leader location-wise,

you know, cause it was so quick.

Yeah.

Trey: I mean just the, the imagery of
Gomorrah in the Santos armor is so like

rich would visual storytelling because
you know that relationship between her

and Dan knows, you know, what that armor
means to Thanos toast, to see her they're

dressed in that armor and his weapon,
it immediately starts your, your mind

going like, okay, how did you get here?

And then, like you said, throw
in Neveah to Lear and Tony.

With, uh, is it each tree as
they're destroying the gauntlet?

Like there's so many, like, I don't think
you have to walk us through how you got

there and just trust a little bit of
like, okay, this is how this is remixing.

So I feel like, I know we brought
back to the episode, but bringing a

little bit more on the positive side.

I want to talk about the pub scene
and specifically because of that

one scene in Ragnar rock where Dr.

Strange gives Thor, the never ending mug.

It makes me so happy that he is
the multi-vessel bartender for

this ragtag team of guardians.

Jude: Yeah.

See, that's the other thing.

I was really expecting
that mug to fill up again.

And now having said that I am glad
that he did the whole smashing.

The whole kinda and everything
he said, I don't even remember.

I don't think you said another,
but just the whole smashing down.

I was like, ah, that
brings a smile to my face.

Uh, but you're right.

He is Dr.

Strange is the multi-vessel

Trey: it's a high honor of all,
all the doctorates he had, all

of the surgeries completed.

He's got to put multi versatile
bartender as up as one up there.

Jude: Yeah.

PhD MD, all of it, bartender, you know,
he probably bartended his way through

medical school, so he probably could have,

Trey: it makes sense to

Jude: me, new head cannon for

Trey: all of his arrogance, he
is still pretty conversational.

So he had to pick that up somewhere.

Oh yeah.

So, but now, you know, I was
going to say in my priest portal,

I thought I mentioned that.

Um, I may have done this on social.

I don't think I said this in the
episode, but I mentioned that a little

characterization goes a long way.

And so I wrote this in my notes
and I was very curious to see

how this was going to work.

Um, I'm starting with, I think the
biggest issue I had in this series

is the Killmonger episode and, uh,
you know, I won't rehash everything,

but the biggest thing I think I came
away with is how unopposed he was

for the duration of his episode.

It, you know, I wanted to note that.

The driving force for Killmonger in
this episode is no different than

what he was doing in his episode.

But the difference was that because you
brought these characters together and he

had something to contrast with, it meant
so much more to me to see him side eyeing

that Ultron helmet than it did, watching
anything that he was doing in his episode.

Um, and so like, it, it felt like
there was a stake there of like,

here are all these people that have
this one goal and you can already see

him starting to hatch another one.

So that just felt like
good narrative drama.

Um, And where I thought I was gonna maybe,
you know, meet you halfway with party.

Thor was, if I was trying to see from
your perspective, like, okay, party

thrower is just completely annoying.

I like, I don't, I'm personally fine with
them, but if I'm someone who is completely

annoyed with them, I think the strength
of this episode was that he got to be

the comic relief and not necessarily the
shoulder on which the episode relied on.

So you only got him in small doses with
the way that he would like, you know,

like, oh, I'm not falling for this.

This is one of Loki's tricks.

And then he like tries to walk out and
he has to be brought back in screaming.

And then everybody else
continues on with the plan.

Like it felt like there was a better
balance with these characters interacting

with each other than there was anything
that happened in their, their solo

Jude: episodes.

You say something about Erik
Killmonger and then I'll tell you what

party thrower was to this episode.

Okay.

Uh, as you're saying
that about Killmonger.

I'd liked the Killmonger episode.

We talked about this and that was
the only one friend Daniel was on.

I did enjoy it, but I fully admit
a better episode to show Killmonger

would be what if to Chaka brought him
home instead of leaving them there.

Right?

Like what, what would that have been like?

, you know, when, when that happens and
see that difference, that would have

been a fun experiment to look at.

Uh, so, so I I'm agreeing with
you to that extent, you know,

and the Killmonger episode.

Yeah.

Thor.

So this past Monday, my fifth grader,
we're at baseball practice and she gets

the bright idea of like, oh, coach brought
this big orange cooler, full of Gatorade.

I'm going to add some of it to my water.

And then did she drink the water?

And she's like this water's terrible.

It's water with really super
watered down Gatorade flavor.

And it seems so it seemed like a
good idea at the time, but a little

bit of Gatorade ruined the water and
even a little bit of comic relief

of Thor ruined what potentially
could have been really good scenes.

Doris Decatur rated my water.

Trey: No, I get it.

And like I said, I was, it was a
fun thought experiment to see if I

could see it from your perspective.

And the answer is no, but
like I get what you mean also

Jude: like water and Gatorade.

I get it.

Trey: Oh man.

No, I get you like I, 100%
understand, uh, you know, where

you're coming from with party Thor.

I was hoping to see if maybe the balance
brought some, um, levy to them, but

no, Nobody wants a watery Gatorade.

Jude: No, no, it's just

Trey: one last thing I want to
mention that I have for my notes

is, you know, again, I think the
pub scene is a really strong scene

here in this first act specifically.

I love the back and forth between
strange and the watcher as they

both are kind of vying for the
responsibility of picking up the team.

Because whenever Thor is like,
oh, you know, I've been known

to attract unwanted attention.

And he accidentally like shocks
the, the, the chandelier strange,

like looks at watcher and it
was like, oh, you picked him.

And then whenever Gomorrah is like
demonstrating the, the, uh, infinity

crusher, uh, the Watchers, like I
pick them, like, it was fun to see

them back and forth as they were
like boasting for responsibility.

Jude: That it's a good dynamic.

And I would love to have seen
more of that too, you know?

And it went for the title of the episode.

It was really weird to see, to see like,
I, I think, I think I expected to see more

of the watcher involved in the plan in
participating in the, in the final battle.

Yeah.

You

Trey: know, especially
cause we know he can find

Jude: like, like give that group
and give him the watcher as well.

Like.

So maybe he's tired.

Hey, it's like you said before, it's
like, it's like, when you, you're

playing that video game, when you get
to tag in like that's extra character

and that it has to recharge, you
know, so the washer had to sit, the

Trey: watcher has a cool-down.

I was going to say it like,
look, I mean, Yoda came in for

one big fight and that was it.

And we still love Yoda.

So I think the watcher gets
a pass, one big fight and

Jude: a revenge of the Sith he
took on Duku and the clone wars.

Trey: Oh, that's right.

Okay.

My star wars is, is hazy then

Jude: it is.

And you know, and that's only
in the live action movies.

If you go watch the clone wars
animated series like you should, oh

Trey: man.

You know, I, I could feel
myself walking into that closed

door and I do it every time.

Uh, unless we have any more, uh,
I think we can move into act two.

All right.

Cool.

So act two is going to start us from
the celebratory drinking moment between

the guardians of the multi-verse,
uh, until they are interrupted by

Ultron all the way until the moment
where they have discovered that their

plan with the infinity crusher is not
going to work due to the differences

in the infinity stones per universe.

So starting with me this time, um, to,
to play off what I was saying a little

bit, and again, I'm trying not to make
this about like, oh, this is what I

would have done, but I, here we are.

This is our fourth series.

We've covered.

You people know me by now.

Yeah.

I do it too.

Well, you know, what's so funny.

Somebody wrote, I believe
it was a melt gaming or Mr.

Milk on a, they just recently
changed their username.

But, uh, Mr.

Mel, they mentioned like, Hey,
you know, I, I'm not a writer and

believe me, I know I'm not a writer
and I just responded to them.

And I said like, Hey, we've got
plenty of writer, hats to go along.

Like, you're fine.

Jude: You can borrow on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Trey: Oh man.

But now what I was going to say
is that I think if you would have

gotten to this comradery of the
multi-verse a lot quicker, I would

have enjoyed the season so much more.

Um, because again, I mentioned, there
feels like there's this impulse that you

need to set up each and every individual
character before you cross them over.

But I think it's possible to
learn about these characters in

contrast to each other and the
conversations that they were having.

So specifically there was a scene
where strange and Carter were talking

and they were talking about like, oh,
I'm assuming your Carter did this.

And he's like, actually it
was, uh, captain Rogers.

And so you learn their dynamic there.

Uh, there was another scene
where Gomorrah and party thrower

were talking about Ultron.

And you learned about the suspicious
nature and the, the wising up to

his actions that Gomorrah had.

And I may lose you here.

But some of that, like innocence to
Thor is like, Hey, I trust everyone.

And so they did a great job of.

Showing these characters interactions
with each other that I feel like

you could have gotten to this quick.

Jude: You know what I, it's interesting.

It's like they forgot the lessons
of the, of the, of the phases.

I mean, that's how we got
Spiderman and black Panther.

They, they showed up in civil war first.

Um, that's get Monica Rambo that
way in Wanda vision, you know, we're

going to get, um, oh, who was it?

That the other one that I was thinking
of, I was kind of introduced in that way.

Yeah, I think I was thinking to Sylvie,
you know, well, Falcon, you know, look

at the part that he played and how he
was introduced, you know, so, yeah.

So I just it's like, it's going
to be done and we've done this.

So I don't you're right.

I don't know where that impulse came of.

Like, oh, we need.

To introduce everybody in that

Trey: way.

And again, to be fair and cause I'm
always trying to keep in mind about like,

it's easy to armchair screen, right.

You know, this is the first
entry into the animated universe.

Maybe there's some different
rules and things that they're

trying to learn as they go.

But that that's, that's what that
scene, it stood out to stood out for me.

Is that feeling of like, oh, this
is, this is what I was missing.

No,

Jude: there's your rights.

It was like, we learned a lot
about strange on the toast.

I love the toast.

The toast was fantastic.

100.

You know, and, and we learned a
lot about strange right there.

Um, and it makes sense that to challah
star, Lord's going to step in and do that.

That's what he does.

Um, it was great, you know, so
in, in that, you know, um, I

completely agree with you on
this whole character development.

And we got so much out of such a short
scene, you know, and, and you're right.

Like the, the party Thor, right.

I didn't, I didn't take him
at his is necessarily naive.

I didn't really think of
it much at all, but, um,

Trey: am I.

Just a little tiny crack in the shield.

Jude: No, no.

Um, so I, I mean, I was, I was trying
to convey how much of an afterthought

that it, that he was to me that like,
I didn't even give it enough thought

to be like, oh look, he's naive.

I was just like, oh, look, he's there.

Um, you know, I mean, I mean, literally,
right, like one of my notes, my

first two notes of this scene, I
don't even have contexts with it.

So I'm not exactly sure what I was
referring to strange as toast was

fantastic for exclamation points.

Oh, door.dot dot, like.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think what you're referring to,
I can't remember exactly what he

says, but he gets excited and he
shoots his lightning into the sky.

And that's what triggers.

Jude: I think that might've been it now.

I will say like, like one of the things
and another thing, going back to captain

Carter, the whole BFF thing, you know,
it's like, I would love to seen more of,

and it was a different Natasha, but I'd
love to see more of Natasha and cap, but

here and that second viewing is where
things started to break down for me, as

I was thinking about, oh, so it's like,
what am I notice is like, good thing

that Blackwood backstory is the same.

And in that universe, you know?

Cause cause the, like the other words,
the things that Kat had to say in order to

have proof, I'm like, it's a, multi-verse.

We're not, you can't be
confident necessarily that is

going to be the same backstory.

Um, it works.

I like it, you know, but it's
things is like, if I'm, if I think

about these things, it was like,
uh, and, and part of that, again,

it's, it's, it's the cannon, right.

And what rules are we
going to apply to it?

And not because it cannon, whereas
if I didn't think of it in those

terms, I probably who cares.

Right.

Um, and then I did think
one part that infinity.

I was like, that was dumb.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So for me, it was like, if the stones that
Ultron have can work outside of its own

universe, then the stone crusher should
have worked outside of its own universe.

Like there, they wanted it both ways.

And so to have that moment
where it's like, oh, they won,

but it's not quite over yet.

You know?

Um, and I'm like, well,
that doesn't make sense.

Um, and again, if it's part of it
is, and if it's part of Canon, right,

let's just hold multi-verse and
these are just other universities.

Well, they've already established
and low-key their paperweights

and no way should that have worked
after outside of that, uh, universe.

And so which made the vision ultra.

Or as Ken put it Vultron anyways,
in a text to us, V U L T R O N.

Trey: I'm a, my personal
favorite is ultra and pro max

Jude: pro max, you know?

Um, oh, what did he, what did he say?

Hold on, let me get it.

I gotta give kin all the credit on this
one says, I think you can shorten vision

Ultron to Vultron destroyer of the
multi-verse defender of the universe.

That was fantastic.

Um, but he says the line, like
the infinity stones are unique,

like, and I'm just like, so they
shouldn't work here, you know?

Well, wait, I guess they should, because
they went back to his universe, you

know, I guess planet wise, but at the
same time, it's like, I don't know.

It just, it just took me out of it.

You know, it was like, no stone
crusher should have worked.

So I'm the party pooper.

Trey: You're

Jude: not a party pooper
that's that's no, no, no, no.

That's that new merge MCT
now on the party pooper

Trey: dude, the party, you know
what we should start doing?

Jude: No, no, no.

Oh, not my name.

Just put I'm the party pooper that way.

When people get

Trey: dude, the party
pooper it's too late.

I already got the merchandise.

When I was going to say is that we should
do, we should award the party pooper of

the season because clearly I would have
been the party pooper for Falcon soldier.

Uh, I don't know if I think you
eventually came around to low-key

so no party pooper there, but
uh, we both get the party pooper

Jude: award.

That's so funny.

We have series MVP, uh, which
clearly it's captain Carter for us.

Um, I think maybe I'm wrong.

Trey: My I'm torn between the
challah and captain Carter.

Jude: Okay.

That's fair.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Um, and I would love to throw in.

Um, wash.

Yeah.

But there was only that one episode

Trey: that's how impactful they were.

Yeah.

So I want to circle back because
you brought up a lot of great points

that I want to kind of respond to.

And I think I can start where you were
talking about like, thank goodness

that Natasha's backstory was the same,
because it's such a pivotal moment.

And to set the scene it's whenever
captain Carter arrives in the universe,

the age of Ultron universe and.

Natasha has stolen the stone and
she's holding them at gunpoint.

And captain Carter is able to talk her
down by going through her backstory.

And so the thing that I wrote is that
again, referring to the confidence of

the way they started the episode at the
beginning, it makes this heartfelt moment

so much more rewarding, at least for
me, because it's something that we've

been tracking throughout the series,
you know, what stays the same, like

Rogers, what changes like strange here.

It's nice to know that the friendship
between Peggy and Nat is something

that remained throughout the universes.

So there, it reminds me of something.

I also wanted to bring up in the,
whenever we were doing the MCU news,

you need to know, um, there was a
quote from Brian Andrews, where he

was asked about like, well, how do
you handle the stakes of a multi-verse

when you can just sidestep into another
universe and everything's fine there.

And so this is a quote from Brian.

It says, quote.

So if we're doing our job and engaging
the audience, it shouldn't matter

that there could be some other
person that's alive or dead in some

other universe is what's happening
right there in the present, right in

front of your face, that adventure.

And if you can connect in some way then
awesome, then it's always going to work

and you never know what you're going to
get, which I think is part of the fun.

Um, I'm ending the quote.

There's a little bit more that
you can read in the article.

But the thing that I wanted to
take away from that is I, it's

something we've talked about.

Once we start dealing in the multi versus
like, how do you handle the stakes?

And even though I'd say 65 to 70% of
the way they handled the multi-verse

didn't work for me in the series.

I think that moment with Peggy and
KA and Nat worked because of that

confidence they had in the beginning and.

And one more thing.

Like you keep you talk about, like,
you have to have a cannon to be able

to do a, what if, um, you know, I, I
know there's this there's sometimes

there's pushback of like, what is, or
isn't Canon and that can become a very

heated discussion, but it's reminding.

Of something that I've been running into
with a friend of mine we've been playing

D and D and the way we play any game,
not just D D is two different styles.

Like he likes open-world stuff and I like
more directed goal oriented encounters.

And he keeps the compromise that we
came to is that like, in order for

me to be able to have the open-world
freedom of choice, there has to

be something to choose against.

And so the cannon of the MCU is
the thing that you're choosing

against whenever you're stepping
into the, what if universe.

So I also understand, um, that feeling
of what we're bumping into when things

don't make sense to the established rules.

If that makes sense, it

Jude: makes a lot of sense.

Trey: Yeah.

So I like that's been helping me
because I've been trying to play D and

D concurrently with this web series.

That's what's been helping me try
to make sense of like, what if.

Jude: No.

And that makes, that makes complete sense.

Um, the one rule, there
are no rules, right?

Trey: You got to have
at least one, one rule.

It's

Jude: always got to be one rule.

Otherwise you can't break it.

You know what I'm going to get.

I'm going to get sidetracked.

There's a, there's a game that
I play with my fifth grader.

Uh, it makes my other kids frustrated.

My wife likes to play it and
a good friend of mine and his

wife, uh, introduced it to us.

It's called flux F L U X flux.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And there's one rule,
draw card, play a card.

And then there's rule cards that
as you play that changes the rules.

And as you go, and the goal of the game
of how to win the game, all changes.

Everything is in flux, you
know, and I love that game.

Right.

Like, and it just remind
me what you're saying.

Just reminds me a little bit, that game of
like, here's your one established thing.

We have the movies, you know, But
it's like, they didn't know or find

that balance of like, it's okay.

Play all these cards and mess
up all the rules, you know?

Um, cause that's the point of the
game, you know, is to cause the chaos.

Um, so yeah, so that's, but you know, I
mean eventually original point you, right.

That moment worked and it works because
of the groundwork into the beginning

of the episode, it works because we
know Natasha from the one rule, right.

All the movies, you know, and,
and they're able to rely on that.

So, so they did that very well

Trey: there and I keep thinking.

And I'm, I can't remember
if I said it, but whatever.

It's always the Reddit comment that
says, well, technically all stories

are, what if stories, if you think
about it and it's, it's what separates

them is the ability to have meaning.

And I think they've found meaning
in that relationship, right?

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

Yes.

Oh, what if stories?

Shorter stories.

But it's like, when it's like, when
I asked my students, all right, guys,

I want you to close your eyes and
imagine a world in which you don't

exist, where are you able to do it?

And majority of them were like, no, I
can't like the moment I start trying

to imagine a world in which I exist.

I don't exist.

I'm making choices off of the
knowledge of my own existence.

Right?

Like you just, you can't get away from it.

It's the same thing here.

Like you're, they're
making choices off of.

Prior material existence
and that's that's okay.

Um, but you know, um, and that,
and that's, I will say is what

this episode did very well.

And along with the last episode, is
that leaning into what we already knew.

And balancing it with pushing out, you
know, um, you know, I'm just taking

issue with some of the stuff that they
connected to in previous seasons, right?

Like you didn't grab pepper Shiri.

That would have been so much
better to me than Killmonger.

Um, you didn't, you know,
you can add party Thor.

It's like you had party Thor, right?

Like you could have done a completely
other Thor and it would have been okay.

You know, um,

Trey: kind of grabbed captain Marvel
from that party Thor universe.

Right.

Jude: I have an article
that I need to send you.

Um, and I'll link it.

If I find it in time, by the time
this is published, I gotta find it.

Um, but it talks about captain Marvel.

All the work the marvels is going to have
to do to rebuild captain Marvel after

being torn down by what if, um, wow.

You know, well, and we talked
about it a little bit, right?

Tara brought it up on our pod, a
little bit of this, the shorthand

of like, oh, how do we show
how powerful little Tron is?

How do we show how powerful Thor is?

Oh, bring in captain Marvel.

And she succeeds.

And neither one is the
point of the article.

You know, um, and so you kind of just
render her to powerless in a weird way.

And

Trey: I see what you mean.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, cause we were
detailing the ways in which, what if

was using short hands and I felt like
they kind of get away with it with Tony

because Tony is a character that has
gone the getaway with a little bit with

Santos because he's also a character
that has gone, but Tara kind of not kind

of Tara opened up my eyes to like how
that's a problem for a character that

is still around like captain Marvel.

And so I'm very interested in reading
that article that you were talking about.

Jude: I need, I need to find it.

Uh, no pressure.

Hm God.

Where did I find it?

Okay.

I'll look for it.

I did, I did a quick Google search right
now just to see, um, if I could find.

And it didn't come up immediately,
but I know I can find it.

Trey: Well, we are in act two, but as
we've talked about before, a lot of

times, whenever we get to the end of the
series, it's a lot of the action stuff.

So I think the easiest way that we can
handle this is we're going to start

talking about some of the action sequences
that we enjoyed and act two, and let

that transition us into act three.

So if I can start one of the things
that I really enjoyed about how

creative these action set pieces were,
I love that scene wherever they're

on that first desolate universe and
that door launches his hammer and

strange uses his spells to multiply it.

And in the confusion of that chaos, uh,
captain Carter is using her shield and

is able to Ram into Ultron and then take
one of the hammers back to steady ground.

Uh, such a fun sequence.

Captain Carter's worthy.

Well, technically she didn't lift it.

She just hits the ride to which
Peter Parker did the same thing.

Jude: Okay.

That's fair.

Trey: But jury's still out.

She

Jude: could be, she could.

But, you know, party
thrower certainly worthy.

Now.

It was a cool moment.

I did like that.

That was in my note.

I loved all the hammers.

Right.

And so that was a cool moment.

Uh, just the overall, like there's,
there's elements of that, um, action

sequencing that, you know, in a lot of
this is act three stuff, but it's, that

reminded me very much of infinity war when
they're attacking Thanos, especially at

the end, um, when they're all getting them
at the same time and overwhelming them.

Um, and that was really cool.

I really loved that one shot
of, and I think you called it or

maybe Tara called it, um, right
in both of y'all of black widow.

And cap using the shield at the same time.

And then you have that one slow
Mo shot, Zack Snyder watch.

This is how you properly
do slow Mo where target.

Gives the top of Ultron or while under
the other one under cuts it, you know,

and you have that perfect slow-mo shot.

So you really like feel the blow
that they dealt to, um, ultra.

Right.

Um, which was, which was great.

Um, so yeah, I, I loved
that whole sequence.

Trey: Yeah, that shot was incredible.

Um, you know, you talked about this
feeling of it being infinity war,

where they're overwhelming Thanos.

I honestly think there is a blending of
both infinity war and that final fight

and end game, because yes, you had them
all attacking infinite alternate ones,

but in another smart thing that they did,
which I'm realizing I'm a sucker for an

action sequences is they gave us that
clear communicated goal of the soul stone.

And so when they had that shot where the
soul stone was on the ground centered

in frame, and everybody was like
fighting around it, that was fantastic.

And like that told you more and
that one static shot than anything.

I think of like, like I didn't
need to see all the cool stuff.

I'm glad we got it, but that
shot communicated so much and I

Jude: loved it.

It did fantastic.

You know what?

I had a thought, um, I think it was
all trons foot, but when I first watch,

I thought they were bringing back.

The Nazi stopper Stomper
or whatever it is.

Steve Rogers was in Hydra,

Trey: Thumper, Nazi

Jude: stump or whatever.

Um, but like, like I thought that foot and
I thought like he was going to show up.

You know, but within and
realize that that's all true.

Uh, so yeah, but like you're
right, that was beautiful way

Trey: to do that.

So we're still sticking with the action
sequences, but I think we can go ahead

and transition into act three, which
will take us from, uh, realizing that

the plan didn't work and in leaving
black widow and captain Carter to enact

their plan, to upload Zola into Ultron
man, like everything leading up to that

amazing moment where black widow takes
a shot and captain Carter like jumps on

the back of Ultron to lift the helmet.

Another one of those thrilling
sequences from start to finish.

It was wonderful that again, all the
emotional weight of this episode is

built into them because that is where
the work has been done for this episode.

And so when, whenever you have that
moment where, uh, Kappas is telling

that the, you know, I've got the shield,
you've got the sword and Nat replies

with like, oh, you know, it's a USB
arrow, but I get, I love the wordplay.

Net has no idea how profound that
statement is, but because of what I was

saying earlier about, because I'm sold
on these characters, it works so well.

And it just, it it's a nice
rally charge to the end.

Yeah.

Jude: Right?

Like that, that through
line was fantastic.

I love the, the callback there.

Like that's, I mean, that's
what good storytelling does.

Right.

You set things up, um, for later it's it's
the, oh, what was I going to refer to?

Oh, it's into the spider verse,
the shoulder touch, you know,

like doing moments like that.

Is fantastic.

And that, and that just worked
perfectly, you know, uh, for this episode

Trey: and they did it
with no protection spell.

Like I love what they like it.

I know captain Carter has the
serum, but in the face of a threat,

like infinite old Tron, it's,
it's more to the, what that work.

They did last episode where you have
your two underpowered individuals

being the last remaining hope.

I love that they took away that
protection spell and showed them still

willing to do the final heroic act
like that speaks volumes about them.

Jude: Oh yeah.

You know, I, I will say when I
first watched it, um, I have a

note here and the note is actually
a thought from my first watch.

And so, so I wanted to put her down,
but like, here's my second watch.

I know how it is.

I did think to myself, it's like, so.

The savior is the Nazi Hydra agent.

That's an interesting choice.

Okay.

Um, so I do like how they ended
it and he wasn't quite the savior.

It was just like, okay, we're
going, we're going to do this.

Um, but yeah, so

Trey: I'm right there.

Like, I'm so glad you brought that
up because that was my next point.

This is where the episode
really starts to lose me.

And what I had written is
like, like Eric's betrayal.

Like I get it, it's in
line with his character.

It's even a through line to what
he wants because his reasoning is

like, we could save our worlds.

Like this is what old
Tron owes us to the least.

And so, you know, I follow that, but to
have the whiplash of them succeed, Eric

betraying them, Zola, betraying them.

And then having that fight happen
all within like five minutes.

It's like this episode is
swinging harder than the episode

limit gives them space to do.

And so as much as I wasn't doing this
episode, it keeps coming back to that same

limitation of like, just focus on this.

Like they already did such a wonderful job
with Nat and cap and that sequence, like,

we didn't need all this fuss here again.

No,

Jude: I'm with you
completely with you on that.

Trey: So I dunno, maybe this is why
we're not doing a wrap-up episode.

We want to spare you another
week of us being like,

Jude: yeah.

Um, but yeah, and it was a nice
touch at the end where they went

back to the pub and it was that
familiar place for all of us.

That's where they met and
they got to part ways.

But I, I did like the tone of it that
even though there are partying ways,

even though they saved questionably,
uh, they saved the universes.

Right.

They were still going back to
the reality of their universe,

you know, and I liked that.

Trey: Yeah.

Again, it's I guess what I'm learning.

I love when they can communicate the most
about the characters with the most minimal

amount of work, you know, you're right.

They all go back to their
respective universes.

You had that lovely moment where
camp is looking at the picture

of Steve and wanting to go back
to that part of her universe.

But the watcher insists that
like, no, your universe needs

you more than, you know.

And so she takes off and that
leaves us with Nat, who I'm so glad.

She pushed against the universe
and going back to her universe

because there's nothing there.

And what we learn in that moment is like,
you get to wrestle with like, how can you

have a character, like the watcher who
as Nat put it, did you make popcorn while

you watched old Tron destroy my universe?

Like there is rightful anger there, and
then to turn around and get what we've

been suspecting of all season of that
empathy and care that the watcher has for

the little people within the multitudes
of the universe where yes, he still had

to send her back, but he broke his oath
enough to send her back to a universe

in which they had lost their widow.

So she gets to find.

Uh, you know, that family again,
like I liked that they were

able to show he bends the rules.

Uh, cause in contrast it would have
been horrible have sent her back

to the universe where she was left.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, you get, you get that,
that compassion from the watcher,

which is to put a bow on what I

Jude: was saying.

So I have one note left that
plays off of that, but I was

saving that frustrate thoughts.

Well, I,

Trey: all my notes, I think anything
I got left could be stray thoughts.

So if we want to go into straight
thoughts, we can just do that.

All right.

Jude: Cool.

So go ahead.

Okay.

This is my, really, my only one
main stray thought was what world

did Tasha go back to episode three?

Trey: It was the episode where
all the, all the Avengers

Jude: died.

Okay.

Fury was there.

CAPP was there.

Both cabs.

What do you mean both

Trey: caps?

Captain Marvel, captain America.

Jude: Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, when you said both capsules, like,
I don't remember seeing Peggy, uh, see it.

I'm doing it stupid.

What if, um, go read the article,
like, but yeah, so yeah, I, okay.

I guess it was that it was,
I guess it was that one.

Um, cause in my head, like I was
like, no, I'll leave interest died.

So where is she at?

Trey: Okay.

Yeah.

Cause Loki, Loki even has that line
where he was like, you and your

replacement Avengers could never stop me.

And then she like jumped, kicks
him and takes over his mind.

Jude: Hmm.

I don't know why I
didn't put that together.

Trey: Did you ever, did you go
back and watch the post credit

Jude: scene?

I did.

And I

Trey: enjoyed it.

Okay.

Uh, I think that's also telling
of where we're at in this series

that we both missed the stinger.

Jude: Well, in fairness, I missed it
because I watched it this morning.

Um, and I had a doctor's
appointment to get to.

And so like, I.

It was like, okay, the episode's done.

I can go back and check it.

I got to get out of here.

I'm running behind.

So, gotcha.

Trey: I tried fast-forwarding
to see if there's anything, but

I, I fast forward too quickly.

And so I missed and I was like,
okay, just went about my day.

So, but, uh, yeah.

Do you have any more

Jude: straight thoughts?

I thought thoughts.

I had a thought straight thought.

Trey: Uh, my stray thought, uh,
you know, w you talked about like,

okay, it's weird that the Nazi
scientist ends up being the hero.

Another thing I bumped into
is, you know, it's hard to call

a character who destroyed the
entire year of their universe.

Like strange did a redeemed character, but
it is pretty cool that they were able to

get him to bring back the captured Zola
and Killmonger and have him watch over it.

So I think that's the closest we're
going to get to him being redeemed.

But I, I like.

Jude: Yeah, that's interesting.

That's interesting.

Just like, I didn't take that as him
being redeemed, you know, but he is.

Did you know, I mean,
he's doing a good thing.

I mean, I, but like, I, I w well, let
me finish this thought, like I read, go

back to captain America, winter soldier.

It was like, yeah.

I kind of bought into this idea of
no, of not full redemption, but just

bringing Walker back and I can accept it.

Um, so it's just interesting that, that
my intuition there was kind of a, okay.

You're redeeming them and Dr.

Strange, I'm like, okay, you know,
you're, you're in prison already.

So you might as well watch this prison.

Trey: I guess the reason I chose redeem
is because it's a similar fate to what he

could have had if Dormamuu never bargained
with them, like strange was willing to

sacrifice himself in that infinite pause.

And he's doing it again here.

So I, that's why I meant like the, it's
hard to call the character like that

redeemed, but for whatever close word
we can get to, I think they found it.

And I won't bring us back down
the rabbit hole of relitigating

fucking in the winter salts.

Jude: No, but I'm just saying, I'm
thinking of myself, the interesting

thing of like how I took that versus
this, I got him, you know, because

clearly strange I'll be way too
late learned his lesson, you know?

And then the watcher
had to learn his lesson.

So now I go back and grab that
strange, because I know he's

powerful enough to go to this.

Um, but there's a consequence still.

You have to come back to
your universe, which is.

Just as pocket dimension that just
floats there until he escapes and screws

everything up and no way home, but okay.

Trey: Uh, I think that use zoned
in, on what I need from a series.

If they're going to tell a story with
somebody making wrong choices, that

like they need to know it was the wrong
choice and putting him back in that

quote unquote prison, I think has,
is understanding that a little bit.

Yeah.

So, uh, more straight thoughts, you know,
speaking of missing the in credit scene,

it was so funny to me that all day I kept
seeing people say like, man, well, at

least Peggy got to see Steve again and.

Did you watch the episode?

Like that was the whole point of
the washer saying your universe

needs you more than you think
she didn't go back to with Steve.

And so, because I miss the
credit, I was like, I thought I

was like, what are these people?

They don't know what they're wanting.

And then when I finally
got home and rewatched the

Intacct, it was like, oh, okay.

That makes more sense.

Jude: Well, I mean, honestly I
read that is like, she has yet to

see Steve and I'm expecting Steve
to take the winter social role.

Trey: Well, you know, that's the other
thing, like the tone of the series.

And I keep trying not to beat this drum,
but the tone of the series is so all

over the place, because the way black
widow leads into it, she's like you get

it, you're going to need to see this.

And they get all the way there.

It's kind of this foreboding energy.

And then.

Whenever the reflection reveals
that is the hydro Stomper.

You see Natasha from behind Capco,
like sh I forgot exactly what she says.

Oh, she goes, someone's inside.

And the way that she said it
with a smile on her face is

like, implying this happy ending.

But that can't be the case.

Like, I dunno, it's, it's a weird scene.

I didn't like it as much as you did.

No, I get that.

But yeah, so I got one more, uh,
stray thought and, uh, we've talked

about it a little bit, but you know,
my first reaction to this episode was

man, Benedict, Cumberbatch felt odd
in this voice acting this episode,

but when I thought about it and how
much time he spent alone in his little

pocket universe, it makes sense that
we'd have no social cues whatsoever

after being isolated for so long.

Yeah.

So maybe it was a choice

Jude: and it's kind of
like the door thing.

We don't know exactly how in theory
he was there a long time bargaining

with Dormamuu, you know, in, in the,
in the, in the grand scheme of things.

And we'd have no idea.

And before the watcher came back, what
that felt like in terms of time, you

know, um, cause like not to get, you know,
avoiding, like to get really philosophical

or really like scientific right.

You know, and its base, you know,
to water it completely down.

And I, and I realized I'm doing that
time is a measurement of change.

Right.

And.

If he's in this pocket vacuum where
nothing changes and it's constant.

Like every moment, like, like is, is
there there's outside of like, I just did

this, but no one was, I'm only aware of.

You know, it's like there there's
no real time in that sense.

It's, it's, it's had to
have driven them crazy

Trey: at some point.

And I think that's all wrapped up in
a speech and like the meaningless and

the endlessness of nothing and infinite
and it's a child had to come in.

So yeah, that was a, that was
something I didn't pick up

on until my, my second watch.

But yeah, that that's going to do
it for, uh, our stray thoughts.

Uh, and you know, when I was thinking
about it today, while outlining this

episode, it's going to be a bit before
we have our listeners first takes.

Cause it won't be until Hawkeye in
November that, uh, we get to do this.

So before we jump into these, I
just want to say for everybody

that's been partaking in this.

Thank you so much for sending in
all your thoughts on the episode.

Jude: I'm excited about
bringing those back.

Trey: Yeah.

But as far as this episode goes, this
was some of the first takes that people

had after we reached out on social media,
uh, starting with this one, uh, this one

comes in from friend Daniel on Instagram
and it says fun, fast and surprising.

And it sounds like somebody took
up the three word challenge, his

review after last week's episode,

Jude: the next one, definitely fun.

A couple of moments hit
in my feelings wishes.

Way longer, um, emphasis
on way, I guess is mine.

I'm not sure.

Um, but that's TK on

Trey: Instagram.

Uh, the next one comes in on Instagram
from Ben dot Mattie loved it.

The fighting was really well
done and had a lot of drama.

The animation made it look really cool.

And I, and I think I'm right there.

Like, even though it's something
we glaze over in our views, I think

we're both in agreement of the
fighting and the sequences being

really well done throughout a lot of

Jude: these episodes.

And I, I really liked that.

We took the time and you took the time
in particular to highlight the stone,

just the view of just the stone and you
know, what's going on and you get that

feeling, but you don't actually see it.

It was anyways, it was really well done.

Um, So, yeah, the next one, uh, from
Instagram as well, the Tony snow four

ended perfectly for the first installment.

Also never trust to kill monger
in any universe you would think.

I agree.

Like you would think the watcher
had watched enough universities

to, to figure that out.

What I mean, maybe, I guess he kind of
did like, you know, he was expecting.

But

it

Trey: was all part of the plan,

Jude: part of the plan.

Trey: Uh, this next one comes in
from, oh, shoot podcast on Insta,

uh, quote, I was underwhelmed.

I felt like it was a bit of a weaker
episode and needed something more.

Um, you know, I, even though I
was a little bit warmer on this

episode that it seems to be of their
reception, the wanting something

more, I think is definitely a ringing,
uh, drum beat within this series.

Um, I think when I responded to it
on the Instagram, I specifically

said, yeah, a longer episode goes a

Jude: long way.

Yeah.

And I want to go back to something, a
friend Daniel said to us, you know, like

his, the issues he had with this episode.

And I know, I realize that.

Red one that said fun, fast
and surprising, but the issue

which Daniel, Daniel, uh, but
the issues he was dealing with.

And I, and I feel like I was in the
same boat was more series related.

Then this episode and the episode
by itself was, yeah, I agree.

It was fun.

Fast, surprising, you know?

Um, so yeah, so thank you
to, oh, shoot podcast.

Trey: And just as a quick note.

Oh, shoot.

Podcast is a, another
great Marvel podcast.

They're not strictly Marvel, but
they have started with the MCU.

So if you're looking for more great MCU
podcasts, you should check them out.

They're really good.

Jude: So our next one, the action
sequences have always been a

highlight of the series from.

This episode, certainly delivered on
that, but everything else is just okay.

And kind of rushed.

Also, the watcher is a Pokemon trainer.

I choose you.

And that's from kin on Twitter.

I'd love that imagery.

Trey: I'm so glad that can put that.

Uh, the hashtag I choose you
is fantastic and yes, it's all.

I'm going to see the watcher as now,

Jude: and you know, somebody going,
gonna Photoshop in the Ash Pokemon

hat on top of the watcher now,

Trey: and I know what I'm
doing this, uh, our final first

take comes in from just Mr.

Melts on Twitter and it reads quote.

Action sequences were fantastic.

Great callbacks and tie-ins to pass
films, including my favorite film of the

franchise, captain America, the winter
soldier still have issues with the watcher

and his voice acting, but whatever I
give it 4.5 out of five infinity stones.

Jude: I like that rating system

Trey: meat too.

It's such a fun way to bring it back in.

Although I got to wonder what
happened to that sixth infinity stone.

Jude: Hmm.

I was wondering what, which infinity
stone we're cutting in half.

Trey: Well, it's gotta be the ether.

It's the most liquidy of them.

All.

Jude: Very true.

That's true.

True.

So do you have ether half
full or half empty tray?

Trey: It depends on which store
universe you're looking at.

Party proofreader

Jude: and the ether is the reality stone.

So it works perfectly for this.

So yeah, it's all coming together.

We're all part of the MCU now, tray.

Thank you multiple.

Yeah,

Trey: I can't wait for my check,

whether it's a reality
check or a check check.

We'll never

Jude: know.

Thank you.

Just Mr.

Melton.

Thank you everyone else.

You've given you your first
reactions, looking forward to

doing this again with Hawkeye.

Trey: Yeah.

And of course, if you want to get in on
that action, it, you should be following

us on Twitter and Instagram at NC.

You need to know, uh, we always put up
our pre spoiler thoughts, which is where

you can share your thoughts as well.

So, yeah, I think that's going to do
it for this episode, you know, before

we jump into the ultra, I do want to
go ahead and state this here clearly.

Uh, we've already mentioned, we're not
going to do a wrap-up episode of what if,

uh, just to save everybody the one more
episode of us being conflicted, but what

is coming next week is the meta episode.

Traditionally, we always let
those kind of just stealth

drop and let it be a surprise.

But whenever I was editing this
one, I told you that it has been

hilarious to me that we just jumped
right into it and explained nothing

about what the meta episode is.

So for any of the new covers that
may have found us during this, what

if series a, it's a bit of a break?

Uh, I'm not going to say exactly what
goes on in there, but it's as Jude

has lovingly put it before podcasting

Jude: self-care.

Yep.

Trey: So, uh, you know, stay with
us through a week of podcasting self

care and be right back to our Marvel
related content the following week.

Yeah.

So that's going to do it.

If you want to reach out to us on social
media, you can always reach us at MC you

need to know on Twitter and Instagram.

It's a great place to connect
with us and have a more active

role in shaping this podcast.

Uh, we've been doing great work to put
out extra content that doesn't make it

into the podcast feed, as well as giving
you access to our pre spoiler thoughts

on the day of, if not the day after
that an episode drops, uh, you can also.

Help us vote on what quote from whatever
episode we happen to be reviewing that

week will be the title for our podcast.

So if you want to get in on that
action, make sure you're following

us at those places so that you
can help us make a better show.

Yeah.

Jude: And of course, uh, you can
scroll down to the bottom of the

show notes, click the link to join
our discord, where you can find a

community of people interested in MCU,
pop culture, uh, working out and, uh,

sharing pictures of food and pets.

There's all kinds of stuff there.

Uh, when you go there for the Marvel
content, make sure you click on

the role of channel, click on the
eye emojis, cause that'll get you

access to all the spoiler channels.

Um, of course, as always we
ask for feedback and ratings

and reviews are super helpful.

Um, but the best feedback you can
give is the word of mouth feedback

and share this pod with a friend.

Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can find more of his work
on a SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

Well, that's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you tray.

We'll see you all next week.

so something that just dawned on me
and it didn't happen because like I

go through two stages of where you
and I are just chatting and then we're

recording and that's a different layer.

And then the next layer is whenever I
do the hello and welcome back, like, it

feels like stepping into a new threshold,
the camping trip that I'm going on next

week, leech is going to be there as well.

And she was teasing me.

She's like, oh, when we're there
at the camping trip, I'm totally

gonna make you do the podcast.

And so whenever I did that, you ready?

One, like I was like, oh,
this is my podcast book.

Jude: Well, oh, oh, okay.

So speaking of, well, um, I was
editing the last week episode.

Right.

Um, and, and, uh, you know,
cause was like to Tracy.

Well, Jude again,

he's like, I don't know.

Let me go look.

And I went back to the beginning.

He was like, well, Jude, if
she just rolled her eyes,

shook her head and walked away.

Trey: Oh man.

Jude: Tough crowd.

I know.

Right.

Trey: Listen, the well.

I've got two thoughts off of that.

The slash film cast is a huge
inspiration for me when it comes to

the way I envisioned this podcast too.

And there's a reviewer by the name of
Jeff Cannata where he has made it a

thing that whenever they give him their
like first thoughts of the movie, before

they go into spoilers, that he gives
everything in the form of a Limerick.

And so whenever the host is
like, all right, well, what'd

you think of the episode Jeff?

Jeff goes, well, Dave, I guess you
could say that the, uh, my thoughts

could be best summed into Limerick.

And so that, well, just stems from
like listening to him do that.

And so I I've lifted that into the
way that I do with you, but the

second thought is whenever I started
doing it, That was like, I don't

think we ever had the intention of
having guests on week after week.

So it became so much more apparent
as like four weeks in a row.

It was like, well, tiered.

Well do,

Jude: I'm fine with it.

I think it's funny.

Um, it there, but it was just, I was
just the changes you want you to get?

Oh, that's fantastic.

But it's you can't stop now.

You're the king of intros.

Trey: No, like, it feels weird to not
have the, well, the, well is my anchor.

Jude: Like you can't stop now.

Trey: Yeah.

Now it's all I'm going to be
thinking about whenever I do.

Join our Discord here
As always, share with a friend
and shout out Nick Sandy